Ethereum was not built to address the value extraction that quickly became rampant. Flashbots, introduced in 2020, addressed issues of front-running and value extraction in Ethereum transactions by redirecting value towards network participants. This sparked a crisis within the Ethereum community, leading to a transformation of its roadmap and the concept of the "dark forest paradigm." Kubi Mensah, Co-Founder of Gattaca, provides insights into Titan Builder's role in the MEV (Miner Extractable Value) supply chain, shedding light on its complexities and future implications for Ethereum's development.
[00:00:00] Hello and welcome back to the Strange Water Podcast. Thank you for joining us for another conversation.
[00:00:23] In the beginning, Vitalik said, let there be ETH and there was Ethereum. And we all saw that Ethereum was good.
[00:00:33] Or at least, we all believed that one day Ethereum could be good. For the Ethereum that was born in 2015 had many problems.
[00:00:45] Some quite obvious, and others far more subtle in sinister. Perhaps the most important example of one of these day zero imperfections existed quietly outside of view until November 2020 when Stefan Goslin dropped one of the most impactful ETH research forum post.
[00:01:08] Flashbots, front running the MEV crisis. Along with so much research that came before and after this post set off a crisis in the Ethereum community where we first confronted the existence of the Dark Forest and that ended up drastically transforming the Ethereum roadmap and the end game of the World Computer.
[00:01:34] As an aside, you should search Ethereum is a Dark Forest paradigm for even earlier canonical research. But here's the hyper condensed version. Before Flashbots, Ethereum transactions were preyed upon by highly sophisticated actors capable of manipulating financial markets and flows to extract value from users.
[00:01:58] Flashbots designed a system to introduce competition, channeling this extracted value away from the predators and towards the Ethereum network participants which are the ETH's stakers or validators.
[00:02:13] This solution has created a complex system made up of many different actors including block builders, MEV searchers, block realies, network validators and more.
[00:02:26] And yet this added complexity has enough benefit that it has been weaved into the core Ethereum roadmap.
[00:02:35] Here in 2024, we sit in this incredibly unique moment of transition. The moment before the Dark Forest feels safe and warm but with enough pieces in place so that we can understand how we get there.
[00:02:52] And today we have the perfect guess to help us not only understand what the landscape looks like today but how it is changing and what it might look like in its end state.
[00:03:06] Kubi Mensa is a co-founder of Gatica, the company behind Titan Builder. Titan Builder is one of the core players at one of the most critical points of the MEV supply chain.
[00:03:19] Responsible for building close to one third of all Ethereum blocks.
[00:03:25] This conversation is a rare look into one of the more opaque layers of the crypto stack including a deep dive into what the MEV supply chain looks like,
[00:03:37] a discussion of just how relevant the risks of the inclusion delay and even concepts like validator proposal separation.
[00:03:47] Again, this conversation is a treat and I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.
[00:03:53] One more thing before we begin please do not take financial advice from this or any podcast. Ethereum will change the world one day but you can easily lose all of your money between now and then.
[00:04:10] Okay ladies and gentlemen Kubi Mensa.
[00:04:20] Kubi thank you so much for joining us on the StrangeWater podcast.
[00:04:23] Yes, I think it's great to be here.
[00:04:25] Of course, so before we kind of really get into it and I'm so excited to walk through the MEV supply chain,
[00:04:32] I'm a huge believer that the most important part of every conversation of the people in it.
[00:04:36] So real briefly could you just walk us through like who are you, how do you find crypto and then I guess ultimately what led you to the block building side?
[00:04:46] Yeah sure. So hey, I'm Kubi, co-founder at Gatica.
[00:04:51] So Gatica is the company that is behind the Titan block builder and recently also the Titan Relate.
[00:04:59] My personal background is software engineering service security, so software engineering hard.
[00:05:06] I built a cybersecurity startup before getting into crypto, so that was my first venture out of uni.
[00:05:14] But then I guess as my previous company got acquired and I worked for the company that acquired us
[00:05:20] I had a lot more time on my hands and I started dabbling
[00:05:25] and just because of my cybersecurity background I've always heard about crypto and specifically Bitcoin back in the day
[00:05:32] from afar and the concepts of encryption, hashing, public keys, private keys, all kind of made sense to me.
[00:05:41] But really putting all these concepts together to create this ecosystem or this new machinery that allows us to exchange value was fascinating.
[00:05:51] Yeah so I had more time on my hands and basically started just dabbling which meant trading and buying some stuff
[00:05:58] and looking to different kinds of project and that basically got me down to a rabbit hole of crypto.
[00:06:03] Awesome, and my understanding just from learning a little bit more about you is that part of what really got you into MEV
[00:06:11] and the competitive games was that you were building applications and scripts and whatever for
[00:06:18] like games of probability that weren't necessarily related to crypto
[00:06:22] and we just love to hear a little bit about how that journey of basically like MEV in a non-MEV world
[00:06:29] led you to realizing that these same skills and same ideas are going to be critical enough
[00:06:35] that you can build what I hope what we both think is going to be one of the most important companies
[00:06:41] in the future financial system.
[00:06:44] Yeah so I basically as a kid I've always been doing side projects and writing some code
[00:06:51] just exploring different things to find interesting and I found it fascinating that you could
[00:06:57] basically write some piece of software like at home in front of your computer and just generate income
[00:07:05] and so one of my good friends from uni who's actually also one of my co-founders from the previous
[00:07:12] company and it's part of the current company as well so we've been working for like decades
[00:07:18] together but we essentially embarked on like one of the side projects which was writing
[00:07:24] at bots for like as you mentioned probabilistic skill games on internet and that involved probability
[00:07:31] and so that involves just like conceptually architecting software in a certain way
[00:07:39] like covering sort of the signal generation process that you know generating then the action
[00:07:45] based on the signal and then automating in uptime and all of those kind of things so
[00:07:51] it's kind of the same concepts that most trading system follow and when we then first got into
[00:07:58] crypto and did some manual buying here and there and exploring different kinds of assets
[00:08:04] it was quite apparent very early on that there are lots of arbitrage opportunities so you know
[00:08:10] you could literally do them manually so why not automate this and you know we sort of followed
[00:08:15] the same principles and that just ended up like evolving more and more into sophisticated trading
[00:08:21] systems so none of us actually had a financial sort of background or worked in like a tradfly
[00:08:27] before getting into this but this system became more sophisticated so we actually started building
[00:08:34] liquidity provisioning services for like crypto project then understanding the microstructure
[00:08:40] better and the functioning of the order book we then did market making as a service
[00:08:46] and then actually transitioned out to proprietary market making so like proper hft startup market
[00:08:52] making on centralized exchanges and this was during a time where the market wasn't super competitive
[00:08:59] and so none of the big tradfly players were in crypto yet so naturally you know naive engineers
[00:09:05] with some grid could become competitive but we knew this was nothing long-term but why it's
[00:09:10] worth doing this we also got exposed to some of what we called back in the day on-chain trading
[00:09:15] which is now I guess all lumped into M.E.V and that sort of let us down the path where we were like
[00:09:24] okay this is a entire new world this is a market structure that has never existed before so
[00:09:31] focusing more in this ecosystem would make a lot more sense because we could actually be competitive
[00:09:36] in the long-term and that's what started all of this awesome and I don't want to like just beat
[00:09:42] your background like too much to death but I think like an important thing to highlight here because
[00:09:48] I think it kind of becomes your story and the story of M.E.V is correct me if I'm wrong but my
[00:09:54] understanding of why you kind of left these probabilistic games and entered into crypto space is
[00:10:00] because you saturated the market and your like strategies and your success was so large that it was
[00:10:08] like basically pricing you out of your own games and so basically you need to go find a different
[00:10:14] game fortunately found a bigger game and so like all things work out but I just I love that story
[00:10:21] because it is a microcosm of everything in M.E.V which is the first one there is able to like
[00:10:27] extract a lot of value but like you cannot just rest where you land like you have to continue
[00:10:33] on the race you have to continue moving forward because like there is a like unstoppable wall coming
[00:10:39] behind you which like once it passes where you're at like there's no value in what you're doing
[00:10:43] anymore yeah absolutely so like with all trading style of strategies like this just very high
[00:10:50] all the decay usually and so you just have to constantly push the boundaries whether it's late
[00:10:56] to see whether it's based on signal detection or whatever it is and so yeah you're very right
[00:11:02] so as soon as either the market becomes saturated by yourself because you take up a large enough space
[00:11:09] in the market or just new players enter the market yeah awesome so let's keep that in mind as a theme
[00:11:15] like walk through the rest of this conversation but I so let's zoom forward to this kind of
[00:11:20] founding moment of Gatica which first of all the name Gatica I have to ask like when I hear
[00:11:27] Gatica I think Ethan Hawke and like discrimination based on gene pools but real quick like where did you
[00:11:33] how'd you pick that name what's the meaning behind it for you yeah you're absolutely right so
[00:11:37] it is based on the movie so both my co-founder Philip and I we have big fans of the movie
[00:11:44] and you know there's this specific scene in the movie where the two brothers played a game of
[00:11:50] chicken right when they paddle out to see and one is obviously genetically superior so always
[00:11:56] wins the game but then there's one time they actually went out to play chicken again and he
[00:12:02] that genetically not superior brother actually won and then actually saved the other brother
[00:12:08] and when they came back to shore and he saved his brother he was like how did you manage to do
[00:12:12] this because you physically shouldn't be capable and his answer was basically because I
[00:12:18] saved nothing for the way back right and when we entered sort of this trading game and not being
[00:12:26] like from a financial background and all that we always felt that we were not like we were the
[00:12:32] underdog in the game and so just sticking to their principle of not saving anything for the swum
[00:12:38] back is basically what kept us going and yeah that's what we call the gottica man that is so
[00:12:43] cool that is so badass and I'm jealous honestly okay so let's let's kind of like continue this narrative
[00:12:51] through the founding moment of gottica so you it sounds like you're basically like going through
[00:12:56] this moment where you've developed one of the early like prop trading firms in crypto and then
[00:13:02] realize like we could probably continue down this route like maybe go hire some like
[00:13:07] tradify guys some like real quants and really just do trading stuff but you kind of made this pivot
[00:13:12] to say like the important thing that's going on here is not necessarily like the individual moves
[00:13:17] but it's like the whole infrastructure in the whole system so can you really talk through that moment
[00:13:22] of like what was that aha moment for you and I guess like the parallel story I want to tell
[00:13:29] during this is like what was going on with Ethereum during that time was this like pre-flashbots
[00:13:35] era was this the era where flashbots was just starting to you know communicate that there was
[00:13:41] this dark forest that we need to like build systems were we already in the relay era can you talk
[00:13:46] through a little bit about like what was the the block building founding moment yeah so um
[00:13:52] just to take a bit of a step back so when we sort of started shifting resources from centralized
[00:13:58] exchanges to like this on-chain trading world slash mv we mostly focused on evm compatible
[00:14:06] else or one chains and the reason why was because we had built a lot of low latency infrastructure
[00:14:12] for the centralized exchange trading um and that really wasn't an edge on ethereum for example
[00:14:19] where you had already the flashbots mvd option right and you obviously have the 12 second block times
[00:14:26] and so um we we did a lot of atomic arbitrage a bit of cxdx arbitrage as well um but again like we
[00:14:35] we didn't feel like that is the future of what we want to do long-term like we were always very
[00:14:41] much driven by the technical challenges and just being very fascinated with this entire new world
[00:14:47] as it's open up and never existed before but like we were always wanting to do something bigger that
[00:14:53] was more meaningful and um we were kind of always looking out and always having also our i on the
[00:15:00] ethereum ecosystem specifically the mainnet because that is where most of the activity was happening
[00:15:07] in general in terms of like liquidity and tbl and all of that most protocols emerging and most also
[00:15:16] evolution of the market structure because there was the much much fewer market overall in the ecosystem
[00:15:22] and so um when the transition of uh proof of work to proof of stake happened during the merge and
[00:15:29] with the introduction of pbs so proposed ability separation um we got very much read pilled by
[00:15:38] a few months earlier actually um by uh vitalex and gameposts where he essentially talked about
[00:15:46] the fact that you do have these centralizing forces which we were very aware of because we are
[00:15:51] playing some of these games ourselves um and that for the future of blockchains is actually
[00:15:57] beneficial if we leverage like decentralized actors as long as we have decentralized
[00:16:05] oversight and enforce the rules that we want to enforce it given the outcomes that we want to have
[00:16:10] with like the entire ecosystem um and so pbs made a lot of sense for us uh obviously there are
[00:16:19] a lot of implementation details that you have to get right and you know it's no perfect gift um
[00:16:23] but it really made a lot of sense for us and we also realized that we would be in a rare position
[00:16:29] to actually be really good at this um and the distinction we also made was that transitioning
[00:16:36] to become a block builder given like our understanding of mv searches what their requirements are
[00:16:42] because we were a searcher it was also very important to us that we stop searching ourselves
[00:16:48] so if we actually do block building ourselves that we don't actually compete for the block space
[00:16:54] that we offer to our clients so to speak which are searches users and all other kinds of
[00:16:58] block space consumers and so putting that all together it was like okay this is an opportunity
[00:17:05] to leverage like all the learnings in our journey like across time and crypto to actually channel
[00:17:11] this into something that could be long term very sustainable is more collaborative and also
[00:17:18] at the end of the day net positive and not just playing a zero sum game and yeah when we had that
[00:17:23] a harm moment and there's a lot of brainstorming how could this actually be something that is
[00:17:27] sustainable and how do you actually generate a business that's commercially viable based on that
[00:17:32] we made a decision and uh became a block builder yeah awesome and and I really want to get back
[00:17:40] to this um this idea that you talked about where like when most people think about mv and the
[00:17:47] mv supply chain like it's in the name it's extracted value and and people think of it like whatever's
[00:17:52] going on here like uh it's probably not good but I think it takes like an educated person in a
[00:17:59] true believer and someone like yourself to understand the entire supply chain and think like no
[00:18:05] no there's still positive sums to sorry positive sum games to be played here and it's about building a
[00:18:11] system that like not only allows for positive sum but like you know the natural glide path is positive
[00:18:17] sum as opposed to where we were going before kind of like PBS was on the table which was like it's a
[00:18:24] simple system it works and we're just gonna pretend like that all this terrible stuff is not
[00:18:30] happening about under the covers right and so anyway I want to get back to a positive sum
[00:18:34] a little bit later but I think now is a great time to talk through like what is the mv supply chain
[00:18:41] and I think that's like a huge question and it's especially challenging in mv because it depends
[00:18:48] if you're talking about in the pre-flashbots era in the current era or in the PBS era but I guess
[00:18:54] just for the sake of simplicity and ability to communicate over podcast can you maybe walk through
[00:19:02] like what is the mv supply chain like who are the key players and which pieces does Gatica have
[00:19:09] like a product to be part of the supply chain so um like it starts from the user and let's say
[00:19:19] the user is someone who wants to you know execute a swap on let's say uni swap v3 and you know
[00:19:26] basically has this intent to create a swap and then interacts with a depth and let's say the
[00:19:30] depth is as I mentioned uni swap interacts with a wallet let's say you know methamasco you
[00:19:36] will prefer wallets and that already has multiple parties in the supply chain so you have the user
[00:19:43] you have the depth you have the wallet right okay now their transaction actually gets signed
[00:19:47] you know created and then you have mempools and today you have private mempools or public
[00:19:54] mempools there's still a significant amount of transaction and public mempools but more and more
[00:19:58] of the transactions are going to private mempools because you know it leaks data and leaves potential
[00:20:06] users like up to being attacked through front running sandwiching and other kinds of things
[00:20:12] um and so now you have the mempool layer and us part of the mempool itself you know
[00:20:18] you can have RPC providers right that are part of the public mempool and nodes obviously in the
[00:20:24] network but you can also have private mempools and these are services essentially just house
[00:20:31] the transaction and forward them to the next participants which can be either searches or
[00:20:37] builders and our elaborate but there are forms of private mempools that essentially are
[00:20:44] order flow auction platforms or a face as they can be termed and you essentially have searches
[00:20:52] competing for the right to be able to like capture our retrash after users transaction executes
[00:20:59] it could also be another thing for example you could put an Oracle update through an OFA and
[00:21:04] then when someone liquidates the protocol that value gets kicked back but essentially
[00:21:10] a platform where a transaction can be sent to and different actors mostly searches
[00:21:14] can compete for the right to be able to execute some sort of value capturing transaction
[00:21:20] transaction after the user transaction then usually the window that auction um then gets a bundle
[00:21:27] which is the originator transaction plus the searcher transaction sent to the block builders
[00:21:34] the block builders are essentially a domain job is to aggregate all these sources of transactions
[00:21:42] from public mempools from aggregators from or phase and maybe directly from trading firms and
[00:21:47] searches and all different kinds of actors L2s consumers of block space so to speak
[00:21:53] and then sequence these transactions in a way that maximize the block reward
[00:21:58] and then um once these blocks get created you then participate in another auction through a relay
[00:22:07] and the relay basically is an interface between the proposals and the block builders and the
[00:22:13] proposals auction off the right to build the block to build block builders and again whoever
[00:22:19] builds the most valuable block in terms of total block rewards then earns the right
[00:22:24] and then the relay essentially chooses the most valuable block on behalf of the
[00:22:29] proposal the proposal signs off on that specific block and that block then finally gets propagated
[00:22:36] to the network at which point you have other validators that will attest to the block and
[00:22:40] then concerns this happens and it gets added to the chain so total mess
[00:22:45] so let me uh just try to summarize and then we'll hone in on the parts that are relevant to
[00:22:50] this conversation so starts at the user whether that's me doing something on uniswap or jump
[00:22:56] crypto like doing a massive like high frequency trade that transaction goes to a wallet and by
[00:23:02] the way the wallet is really two entities it's the wallet and the rpc provider right and then from
[00:23:07] there it goes to the mempool which the mempool can be the public one that we all use or it can be like
[00:23:13] many different types of private mempools right and all of this is basically pre-gateca correct
[00:23:20] like none of these pieces is really where you guys interact with the supply chain
[00:23:24] so we are actually in the process of also launching like a private mempool product um but that's
[00:23:31] we haven't publicly released it yet alpha alpha for something you can't get exposure to great
[00:23:36] um so okay got it so that's how kind of like transactions appear to be uh like ordered and
[00:23:42] eventually make it on chain so then we have these entities called searchers and um i think we all
[00:23:48] know that searchers are like the people that go into the public mempools the private mempools
[00:23:53] and then try to create these bundles which are like opportunities for um you know from their
[00:24:00] perspective for value to be extracted from the user's perspective it's just the order of
[00:24:04] transactions so they can appear on chain but the point is is that the searchers are creating these
[00:24:08] bundles and then sending bundles over to the builder in which the builder is assembling the bundles
[00:24:14] so is that correct? That's correct. So something super interesting that you said is that when you guys
[00:24:20] as gatica decided to get into this game you found that it would be you decided it would be very
[00:24:26] important to not participate as a searcher only as a builder that uh makes sense to me right like
[00:24:33] you don't want to like compete against your own customers but on the other side like
[00:24:39] what is a builder if not just like uh searcher for searchers and and i guess put another way
[00:24:46] like if you're saying you're not a searcher i guess that makes sense to me but like if you
[00:24:52] see three bundles and realize that like if you combine them in a specific way you'll get more
[00:24:56] revenue doesn't that essentially make you a searcher as well? Yeah so it is more of a generalized
[00:25:03] searching problem where like usually searches as i call searches are usually traders or trading firms
[00:25:11] that execute specific strategies and so you know as specific strategy could be for example atomic
[00:25:18] arbitrage it could be non atomic arbitrage so your arbitrage let's say on chain decks as versus
[00:25:24] centralized exchanges it could be being a liquidator so you look for positions that are under
[00:25:30] collateralized and you know buy back the collateral and all of that kind of stuff but which
[00:25:35] is a valid capture opportunity so these are very specific strategies which require
[00:25:41] specific trading knowledge integration with specific protocols understanding like prices,
[00:25:47] movements of assets and all of those kind of things um a specific specifically in the case of
[00:25:52] non atomic arbitrage also taking on like a lot of risk in some of these cases managing collateral
[00:25:58] having a lot of AUM and all of those so you are proper trading firm meanwhile as a block builder
[00:26:04] as we see it and you can there are some very synergetic effects if you're both as a block builder
[00:26:11] any searcher because you basically can have a look at all this flow you're getting and can trade
[00:26:18] based on that flow and you can have better execution than a ton of other things um but a block
[00:26:24] builder as I see it is basically this service provider that makes sure that for all the
[00:26:30] transaction originators or consumers of block space you maximize their inclusion because that's
[00:26:36] what everyone wants at the end of the day get included on chain and then on the other side of
[00:26:41] the market you have the proposals where the you're basically servicing them from the perspective
[00:26:48] creating the most valuable block which requires a lot of sophistication and infrastructure and simulations
[00:26:53] on all of these things um and you're basically serving this two-sided market and providing the best
[00:27:00] service for both then if you're really good at it that's when you are able to produce a lot
[00:27:04] of subsequent blocks and so I apologize if this question sounds condescending because I mean
[00:27:11] it completely opposite but like what does a builder do that's not like I could totally imagine in
[00:27:18] this construction all a builder does is receive these bundles sorts by like a amount of priority
[00:27:25] fee and then just like orders them in direct like descending order so I guess my question to you
[00:27:33] is like what differentiates a good block builder like Titan builder who's able to capture like over
[00:27:38] a third of the market versus someone who would naively say like hey everyone just send me your
[00:27:44] bundles and I'm just gonna put them in order based on priority fee so they're multiple factors
[00:27:51] so I think the very the most important one is order flow so without transactions to actually
[00:27:59] build the blocks you will not be able to competitively build blocks so that's just very basic
[00:28:05] so once you have order flow and somewhat on par with other block builders ultimately you
[00:28:11] want to be at a stage where you have order flow that not necessarily everyone else has because
[00:28:16] that leads to even more valuable blocks and we can talk about that as well then it's a function of
[00:28:23] the latency and throughput of your infrastructure because the way we think about MEV in only
[00:28:33] theorem if you have 12 seconds and it's like an eternity from an HFT perspective but in reality
[00:28:39] like at the start of the slots you only have a very few transactions and then us to slot progresses
[00:28:46] and you get towards the end and the beginning of the next slot which is their time for the block
[00:28:51] proposal more and more transactions come in in real time so depending on the type of MEV
[00:28:59] specifically let's say for CXDex arbitrage you want to send your transaction as late as possible
[00:29:06] because that minimizes the risk of you being wrong about the price of execution on chain and off chain
[00:29:13] so that in itself requires you to push the boundary as far as possible and if you're really good
[00:29:21] at minimizing the time usually you will have higher value blocks just based on CXDex arbitrage
[00:29:27] but this also applies to other kinds of arbitrage email tomic arbitrage because the atomic arbitrage
[00:29:32] problem is basically an on-chain search problem and the more time you have to find like different paths
[00:29:37] that basically you could cover a more profitable route they usually that also leads to more
[00:29:42] profitable blocks and then if you combine all these things together because you have a lot of
[00:29:47] transactions coming in in real time towards the end of this slot obviously you also have more
[00:29:50] transactions to search through so in general you have this problem where at the end of this slot
[00:29:56] you want to wait as long as possible and then you have a lot of information to sift through
[00:30:01] and process and so latency is very important even though you have 12 seconds so latency overall
[00:30:07] and this is everything from sourcing transactions network latency processing your mempools and all
[00:30:13] of those things to the second part which is very important for block building which is basically
[00:30:19] simulations so these transactions come in but you have no idea what these transactions do or how much
[00:30:25] they actually pay and how much they pay also depends on what position they block their land right
[00:30:30] so if you approach this problem very naively you would want to sort of try all combinations
[00:30:36] and pick the combination that is most profitable and then the faster you are doing these simulations
[00:30:43] the more possibilities you can try so that's one thing so simulation speed is very very important
[00:30:49] and the final bit is basically what people call bundle merging or transaction sequencing algorithms
[00:30:56] and this is basically how you try and limit the search space so you know you don't want to brute force
[00:31:01] everything but if you have some smart algorithms you can basically choose or predict what kind of
[00:31:07] sequences will be most likely more profitable so I think that's on a high level and then obviously
[00:31:14] you could go into a lot more deals yeah man this is going to be a tough strange water episode
[00:31:19] because everything you say just like launches my brain into like 50 new questions and directions
[00:31:25] and like there's just so much I want to talk about but we'll try to go in order here so the first
[00:31:30] thing you talked about when we're talking about building a differentiated block builder is about
[00:31:35] order flow and I guess like my my first question to that is when we're talking about building a
[00:31:42] block building company we're talking about gattica here not about a Titan builder what like first of
[00:31:49] all like are you making individual relationships with like traders and proprietary firms and like huge
[00:31:54] liquidity providers that says like hey only build bundles and send them to us like do not send them
[00:32:03] to our competitors or whatever but if like if you only search for us like you know that maybe
[00:32:10] there's an incentive or there's some sort of benefits but I guess like at the very basic level
[00:32:14] when you're talking about private order flow like how do you as a company go about securing that
[00:32:20] like what does that mean yeah so first of all it is all about trust first because we as a block
[00:32:29] builder centralized entity and that we could do theory very bad things with the bundles that are
[00:32:37] being sent to us so we could unbundle we could front one sandwich steal MIV from people and all
[00:32:42] kinds of things so the first thing is trust and how do you establish trust so first of all
[00:32:49] by being in the space and having a track record of you know having multiple high value opportunities
[00:32:55] of potentially stealing MIV or doing various things and not doing it I think that's
[00:33:00] the more critical one and as you operate in the space and different kind of projects are familiar
[00:33:06] with you naturally trust happens so that's one thing and it's also just a fly real effect of the
[00:33:13] low-income you're in the space and not doing bad things to more people trust you naturally
[00:33:17] so that's one thing and then it's also people knowing about you because if you know there are a lot
[00:33:24] of entities searches and wallets and all kinds of providers the centers order flow and we have no
[00:33:30] idea who they are because we have a public permissionless endpoint which is you know normal in block
[00:33:36] chains and people just users and they know us because we have been around for a while have a
[00:33:41] significant market share so another big important part of getting private order flow and then
[00:33:48] the the next step or what we focus on essentially is building out products that are value-at for
[00:33:56] specific kinds of consumers of block space and that's when it becomes a bit more of a relationship
[00:34:01] kind of thing so for example we have been spending a lot of time developing features for CXDec
[00:34:08] searches because the most competitive CXDec searches currently are builders as well so they
[00:34:15] are competitive block builders so they're two other larger block builders in the space and this
[00:34:21] just when you are the build and the search yourself you have certain advantages so we essentially
[00:34:26] try to build certain kinds of products into the builder that will give like people and
[00:34:31] overtly integrate into the same kind of advantages and then naturally then attracts different
[00:34:36] kind of flow and even from the perspective if you have better execution in terms of latency
[00:34:42] that means you can price for example your transactions differently right so if you have a very
[00:34:47] slow builder you have to price up transactions or your builder tips differently than if you have
[00:34:53] a very fast builder because the EV on your trade is different so in theory that search
[00:35:00] should might send the same kind of trade to different builders but because we can process it
[00:35:05] fast and you can price more aggressively we have more valuable flow right so the way we basically
[00:35:11] think about this is how can we unlock more value by building different kinds of things into our
[00:35:16] builder so that naturally overall block values higher which makes us then more competitive
[00:35:22] and would you say like roughly just like off the top of your head like what percentage of
[00:35:28] Ethereum transactions come through a private channel versus the public men pool oh I would need
[00:35:33] to look at it chart but are we talking like 10% or 50% like what order of magnitude are we talking
[00:35:38] about here i think the last time i looked it was around 15 20% but could be more now
[00:35:46] and i understand that your software developer for cinefinance person second but based on your
[00:35:51] understanding of how tradfire works like where do you expect the private order flow like percentage
[00:35:58] to kind of stabilize up i think most type of transactions that could potentially leak mv will
[00:36:08] go private that's just a no incentive other than unsophistication to send it to the public
[00:36:16] men pool at the moment yeah makes sense make sense cool so i think we've talked a little bit through
[00:36:22] block building i would love to hear any like kind of other kind of base that kind of not
[00:36:28] we're in that weird area but anything else you'd like to say about block building and then i'd
[00:36:32] like to move us on to the relay portion of of the mv supply chain so quick pause anything else
[00:36:38] that is worth talking about on the block building side i mean i think there's probably like a lot
[00:36:43] but yeah i would leave it alluded to you two ask questions okay okay all right so um yeah and again
[00:36:49] i think first i just want to kind of walk through the mv supply chain and then we'll talk about some
[00:36:53] of the big things uh in front of us and you've already by the way talked briefly about one of
[00:36:58] the biggest thing which is the delay inclusion but let's let's wrap up the uh the slot supply chain
[00:37:04] and we'll talk about relays so first um i think it might be helpful for you to describe what a relays
[00:37:12] but within the context of like why did we need relays within the flashbots mv boost paradigm and like
[00:37:22] i think we have an interesting conversation about the future role of relays as like they become more
[00:37:26] embedded and we probably won't be able to get rid of them but at least in the first uh initial
[00:37:32] sketching of pbs like why do we not need them uh according to the spec so actually in the original
[00:37:39] spec of pbs there was no relays so i thought you were going there but actually um then when we were
[00:37:45] or the ecosystem actually tried to build this out we realized a big problem of trust and so
[00:37:52] because both the proposal and the builder could potentially screw each other over
[00:38:03] there needs to be an entity that can be trusted so if we want to keep the proposal said decentralized um
[00:38:09] and you know they're almost a million uh proposals on main it now um the proposal could potentially do
[00:38:15] very malicious things so for example if i build a block and i give certain guarantees to searches
[00:38:21] and bundles or other kinds of participants um and i just give the block to the proposal the
[00:38:28] proposal can be really just take the block and you know capture all the mv themselves after you've
[00:38:33] done all the heavy lifting or steal mv or screw users over all kinds of things so um if you can't
[00:38:40] trust a proposal that's an issue for the builder the same the other way around because the builder
[00:38:46] builds the entire block and the builder says hey the block is worth let's say ten teeth
[00:38:51] but then if i sign off on it without knowing what the actual content is and if it's actually
[00:38:56] worst ten teeth then the builder can obviously grieve the proposal right so there's this trust
[00:39:00] problem and that's essentially whatever relay solves it's basically just a coordination mechanism
[00:39:06] so that um proposals can source these blocks and the builders can basically
[00:39:11] sell the blocks or buy the right to build the blocks from the proposals without getting screwed over
[00:39:17] and he used the magic word during this and you also used it when we were talking about private order
[00:39:22] flow and i just find it so interesting that the deeper i get into this space of trustlessness
[00:39:29] it kind of turns out that everything important rests on trust and so i don't really know what that
[00:39:35] says about this space but like it is just like so interesting to me that like we're building a system
[00:39:42] to create literally trustlessness and like what are the most important things to have a trusted relay
[00:39:47] or else the system breaks down i should cover it actually that the the way the relay ecosystem is
[00:39:55] evolving is that trust actually will become less important so already relays are essentially
[00:40:04] proposing or are processing blocks from block builders optimistically and they do this by having
[00:40:10] builders lock up collateral so that they can be slashed and then their designs and in a way where
[00:40:18] you don't even need like the builders will still need to lock up collateral but you won't need a
[00:40:23] relay to actually enforce this so they actually designs where we can get rid of the relay but
[00:40:28] in that world the only reason why the relay is still useful is no longer because of trust
[00:40:36] but because it solves the coordination problem and the coordination problem is all the proposals
[00:40:44] having connections to the proposals and then being able to the the block doors being able to
[00:40:49] communicate with the proposals and then also which you can't in theory do through a p2p layer
[00:40:56] but by having a centralized relay even though you don't need to trust them necessarily
[00:41:02] you you basically solve a latency problem that you would have if you go directly via the p2p layer
[00:41:07] yeah and i think that always when we have trust problems right like the the goal of this space is
[00:41:13] always to replace trust with cryptography and crypto economic guarantees and by the way that is why
[00:41:20] the eigenlayer moment is so closely tied to the zk moment uh conversation for another time but
[00:41:26] i so just to be clear what you're saying is that like let's imagine this future world where we've
[00:41:33] solved the trust issue on the relay but it still serves a useful purpose in that each uh
[00:41:40] ethereum proposer won't have to connect to every single block builder in order to find the best
[00:41:45] block like there's a single coordination mechanism i guess my question to you is doesn't that imply
[00:41:50] that there is a single centralized relay because what we have today is like basically an equivalent
[00:41:57] number of block builders in relays like i don't really understand how we're getting any uh benefits
[00:42:02] from that on the relay front um i think um most so some relay operators actually self-capping
[00:42:10] so that they could in theory have more market share because they're more performing than others
[00:42:15] um but as part of being more aligned with the ecosystem and understanding that there's more robustness
[00:42:20] in this system overall if it doesn't all go through a single relay um it's an incentive for that
[00:42:26] specific uh energy to self-cap um but yeah like the nature of latency games naturally have like
[00:42:36] a power distribution power law distribution right and so naturally it just gravitates towards
[00:42:43] very few entities that will be very sophisticated and like be able to optimize all these different
[00:42:49] kinds of problems in order to keep pushing the boundary and being competitive i guess this is a
[00:42:54] clunky segue into like the titan relay but um i guess as of right now none of us really understand
[00:43:01] where the value capture in relays is yet they're kind of like a altruistic service needed in order to
[00:43:08] make like the two money making sides of the equation work um i guess like i would love to hear
[00:43:14] why did you guys decide that you needed to build a relay and how much of that was solving a
[00:43:20] technology problem they just needed to be solved and how much of that is looking forward and realizing
[00:43:26] that while there's no value capture here today this is clearly where a lot of value is going to sit
[00:43:30] in the future and we need to like not get copflat-footed on this. I wouldn't be able to quantify
[00:43:37] the breakdown across these two but it certainly is both. It started off initially just as a
[00:43:43] defensive and move and as a technological problem that we needed to solve just because we as I said
[00:43:50] before we shifted our entire business into being a block builder which very much relies on the
[00:43:55] relay ecosystem and there were issues that we were seeing in the landscape even though like existing
[00:44:01] relay operators do tend to push the boundaries and innovate and there are certain problems that
[00:44:07] think we could solve better um and then also because there's this pressure to vertically integrate
[00:44:15] and we had heard rumors that like the our biggest competitors who already vertically integrate as
[00:44:21] a searcher and a builder were also going to start a relay where you have searchable the relays
[00:44:26] and so we kind of wanted to frontrun that specific scenario and launch a relay that is really
[00:44:32] really competitive and and because if you have a relay that is really really competitive and just
[00:44:38] from a latency perspective and there are the things you can do other than latency but just from a
[00:44:42] latency perspective you sort of almost commoditize the latency edge and then there's no longer
[00:44:49] any reason or the incentive to actually go out and build a new relay and bootstrap this ecosystem
[00:44:55] with all the proposals it's not really there anymore so we kind of wanted to frontrun that.
[00:45:00] Got it. You want to just build the best one so no one else bothered and we could just move on
[00:45:04] from this conversation. Correct, correct. Because it's actually one of the you know key capabilities that
[00:45:09] we have as a company so you know let's leverage that. Awesome and I guess final final thing on the
[00:45:15] relay here is again I think we're all realizing that although the original PBS spec didn't
[00:45:22] account for realies that like they're not going away um and I can imagine a world where they really
[00:45:28] just are this like coordination point between you know the millions of proposals and like
[00:45:34] unfortunately like two to four block builders that we're going to have but fortunately for you but
[00:45:41] I guess as you look forward do you really see the relay just kind of like settling into this like
[00:45:48] very important but minimalist functionality or do you see the like endgame state of relares as like
[00:45:56] serving more purposes in the ecosystem whether that's supporting other parts of infrastructure or
[00:46:02] like providing more opportunities for MEV or a proposal value or I guess like while we're still
[00:46:09] in this like primordial stage of figuring out what the point of relares is do you have any thoughts
[00:46:14] or predictions on like what final state relay looks like. Yeah so um I certainly strongly believe
[00:46:22] that the relay will will act as a entity in the supply chain that is going to do more than just
[00:46:32] relaying blocks today as did you today. I can't speak too much about the things uh specific details
[00:46:39] because I think it's too early to talk about publicly yet but um I strongly believe there's a
[00:46:45] lot more opportunity there's not actually directly MEV related and more of a generalized
[00:46:51] ethereum infrastructure uh play. Damn well you got me intrigued you guys we're going to have to
[00:46:56] have you back. Cool all right so um I would love to you kind of pivot the conversation now to talk
[00:47:02] about like some of the like the big hairy conversations that we have with um like MEV and
[00:47:09] block building and all that stuff and I think the best one to start on is one that we've already
[00:47:14] kind of danced around a little bit which is the inclusion delay and so I guess uh real briefly
[00:47:19] I'll describe what what how I understand what the kind of issue is and then I would love to hear
[00:47:25] from your perspective as a block builder um one am I correct two like do you think that this is
[00:47:31] a real problem and whether or not you think this is a real problem how do you think of building a
[00:47:36] block builder with this new meta in mind. So real briefly um as kubi said earlier like what we're
[00:47:43] all realizing uh is that the longer you wait before you propose a block the more opportunity there
[00:47:51] is to extract value and like at the very basic level there's just like more transactions for you
[00:47:56] to mess with the order with but there's also like more complicated stuff like you know the price moves
[00:48:02] only once every 12 seconds on ethereum it moves every nanosecond on a centralized exchange and so
[00:48:08] you have less information if you propose at the beginning uh or sorry if you create a transaction at
[00:48:13] the beginning of the 12 seconds versus the end of the 12 seconds and so there there's more value
[00:48:18] in being later the problem is is that if you're too late with your block proposal then you're
[00:48:25] going to miss your slot and if this happens too many times like we really risk threatening
[00:48:31] the stability of ethereum itself and so what the debate has like kind of come to is we're one realizing
[00:48:40] that these uh these delay games like have implications for the security of ethereum or sorry the
[00:48:47] stability of ethereum but two we're realizing that like latency kind of is a proxy for um how much
[00:48:54] resources you have and how much resources you have is like another way of saying how centralized you are
[00:49:01] and so like another fear let alone the stability of ethereum but this inclusion delay problem is
[00:49:07] going to have like inherently centralizing pressures on you know the the block building layer of
[00:49:14] ethereum and so um the the question is like what do we do about this and so my question to you
[00:49:20] is one is that like a decent understanding of what the conversation is and two like do you think that
[00:49:26] this is a real problem in something that needs to be thought through or is this just kind of like
[00:49:32] people who don't understand the minutiae like looking under the covers and getting scared
[00:49:36] hmm so um i think it's a good framing of the problem um i i think there's something i would add
[00:49:44] specifically in regards to sort of the liveliness or the robustness of the network being impacted by
[00:49:50] some of these timing games um so the issue is that the risk for the entity that is let's say
[00:50:00] it's um delaying the proposal of the blocking order to maximize value is
[00:50:08] playing what you call sometimes um in the market making game like picking up pennies in front
[00:50:13] of a steen roller right so because you might marginally let's get another percent for every
[00:50:21] let's say 10 milliseconds also but then um you miss the entire block and you get nothing right
[00:50:28] so i think there's a natural incentive for the different entities that actually play time in games
[00:50:33] not to push the boundaries too far because actually it will be negative for them right so i don't
[00:50:39] necessarily think it will be an overall um liveliness problem for the network we've seen some other
[00:50:46] funny time um side effects of this which is for example for um proposals that are not very sophisticated
[00:50:54] like at home stakers for example um if your network connectivity is not good and you push
[00:51:00] the and the previous block proposal pushes the boundary too far even though that block will actually
[00:51:08] still get included but because the attestations happen later that proposal actually doesn't see
[00:51:14] that that block got enough attestations so we'll then start building a block on top of the
[00:51:19] parent the previous parent which will then lead to them being re-orced because that was actually not
[00:51:25] the actual canonical parents that they should build on so there are some other side effects that we
[00:51:30] are starting to see now and it's still someone the early days and all that to say it is definitely
[00:51:37] a problem that people are thinking about hardly mostly the earth naturally um i think
[00:51:43] there has been uh realization that block proposal doesn't necessarily need to be done by the validators
[00:51:54] itself um and you know there are different forms of proposals actually that come about like execution
[00:52:01] tickets or slot auctions or different kinds of mechanisms but actually in order not to impact
[00:52:09] the validators which are really responsible for the oversight of the network we it is basically
[00:52:16] a legacy thing that validators are still actually the ones that are proposed into execution payloads
[00:52:21] so maybe we can come up with systems that actually solve this problem somehow um and you know
[00:52:28] lots of big question marks are on that what that would actually look like but i think that's a
[00:52:32] realization that's getting more and more traction um and i'm quite excited about potential ways
[00:52:39] of solving that problem just based on that by separating those worlds out yeah god that's super
[00:52:45] interesting so i think what you're saying is that the way it works today is like okay so Titan
[00:52:50] Builder will build a block we'll send it to the relay the relay will send it to the proposal
[00:52:55] their proposal will receive the block throw their signature on it and then send it to a theorem
[00:53:00] network where it's confirmed and what you're saying is that we're realizing that that's like
[00:53:04] pretty inefficient and instead it can when it's the proposer's turn they can like kind of signal
[00:53:12] backwards through this supply chain to say like Titan Builder we choose your block and then instead
[00:53:18] of the block going through the supply chain Titan Builder could send it directly to the network
[00:53:23] and then is that kind of the idea so it goes even further than that so so the way it works today
[00:53:30] is like you said like the so the proposal doesn't even see the block right the proposal blindly
[00:53:35] signs off on a bit on a value right so why do we need this proposal to sign off on the value of a
[00:53:42] block that they don't even know what the content is why do that in the first place so what about if
[00:53:48] the protocol itself for example auctions of the right to be a proposal in the first place
[00:53:54] right so so the different validators do their testing and all different kinds of things but
[00:54:00] they don't actually have to be the entity that then signs off on the proposal right so just
[00:54:07] like disconnecting that completely from the validator is the thought process and then there are
[00:54:12] different ways of how you could potentially do this which is yeah another rabbit hole man that is
[00:54:17] yeah I I'm literally just going to hard pivot right here because that's so interesting and so
[00:54:22] greenfield that I could keep us on here for two more hours so anyway another thing that I think
[00:54:29] is worth talking about is we on outside of the MEV community look at just like the numbers in the
[00:54:38] market share numbers and and we think like it's easy to look at what's going on in MEV and
[00:54:44] think that this is a huge centralization risk and like what's the point of like doing all this stuff
[00:54:49] with millions of validators when it turns out there's like one or two guys building all of the blocks
[00:54:55] that like then we just like as you say like get like random people to blindly sign off of like kind
[00:55:01] of what's the point of all this and so I guess my direct question to one of these entities is like how
[00:55:07] do you think about the work you're doing and the implications for like core protocol mean net
[00:55:14] centralization is that something you worry about and if it is like how do you um you know like point
[00:55:20] your company in a direction that doesn't like end up eating the thing that you care about so I think
[00:55:26] when we talk about centralization we should talk about what exactly is the problem about centralization
[00:55:36] so for example like the you know the biggest one like at least from my perspective it's like censorship
[00:55:40] resistance which is um which is something we care about and we are currently trying to
[00:55:47] for as long as possible not needing to sense transactions and we are one of the last remaining
[00:55:52] larger builders actually doesn't sense in transactions but I think it's quite important that actually
[00:55:57] on a protocol level if you sort of outsource the task of block production to entities whether it's
[00:56:03] one entity or more um the the protocol still retains the oversight and a way to enforce the properties
[00:56:13] that it wants the protocol to have and so I think the latest the latest um I guess efforts by the EF
[00:56:21] to battle censorship resistance or censorship is um inclusionless which might hopefully make it into
[00:56:29] the next hard fork uh electro um but I think rather than saying just putting it in a in a box of
[00:56:36] saying centralizes bad like what about centralization is bad is it like the robustness is it um uptime
[00:56:45] is it like censorship what are the specific properties and then let's design the system in a way that
[00:56:51] those properties that we don't want we can enforce them which is you know what we can through the
[00:56:56] validated set and correct uh protocol rules this is how how I look at it then also that's how we
[00:57:02] engage with the EF and um other ecosystem players to try and think about those kind of problems yeah
[00:57:09] I think that's super fair and um let me ask you this big question and and I'll just uh spoil the punchline
[00:57:17] which I think the answer is yes right but do you think a world in which there's just one single block
[00:57:24] but every proposal has the ability to self block build and has um you know access to
[00:57:30] CR lists or inclusion lists or whatever and I guess sorry for the audience what uh inclusion lists
[00:57:36] are just the ability for individual proposals to say I'm going to take the block from Titan builder but
[00:57:41] I also like require you to include these transactions and each individual proposal can decide what
[00:57:48] these transactions are like myself as a home staker not really worried about the government
[00:57:54] reverse engineering my signer keys to find my address so I'd be like I believe in Ethereum I want
[00:57:59] to allow oh oh faxation addresses so my inclusion list would be even if uh another builder doesn't
[00:58:07] include oh faxation addresses I want to include them in mine so anyway do you believe that in the
[00:58:13] Ethereum that has a single centralized block builder but has inclusion lists and the ability
[00:58:18] for proposals to self block build is that congruent with the world computer and is that okay for
[00:58:25] Ethereum or do you think that that is um an example of an Ethereum system that has been captured by
[00:58:32] centralized forces I don't actually think that such a world could come into existence because even
[00:58:40] today like we let's say we have two three builders that are building most of the blocks but you still
[00:58:45] have a long tail of builders that as soon as any of the block builders goes down or has a bug and
[00:58:53] comes a little bit less competitive like other market other builders immediately game market share
[00:59:00] and this has been going on for months so I do think that like the more consistent larger market
[00:59:08] share is going to be captured by very few builders and um just because of specialization most likely
[00:59:16] it will not be one but even if like if the short tail is really captured by one like big block builder
[00:59:26] as soon as there's an issue there'll be lots of other block builders that are immediately game
[00:59:30] market share um so I don't think it's realistic that there will exist yeah all right good answer
[00:59:36] so okay two two more subjects that I want to just like touch briefly and I know we're running
[00:59:41] out of time so we'll go quick um one I want to talk about so what what I love about like Ethereum is
[00:59:49] that they're literally telling you like on YouTube what's coming in the future like imagine if
[00:59:54] like Elon Musk like did his like R&D stuff like just out on YouTube and we could all watch it
[01:00:00] and so we've been looking at PBS for a long time and the cool thing about PBS was this concept
[01:00:06] was created to deal with MEV and then we realized that with this new paradigm this opened up uh
[01:00:12] dench charting like we needed proposal builder separation in order to like make blobs possible
[01:00:20] and so my question for you uh like what do you see any other like interesting opportunities
[01:00:28] that proposal builder separation has created for you that like maybe people that are not uh you know
[01:00:35] elbow deep in the mempool and don't really understand like how coratherium works like
[01:00:40] don't really understand yet so one interesting one that has been getting a lot more traction recently is
[01:00:48] sequencing um so and specifically based sequencing or the L1 or ethereum itself becoming a
[01:00:56] sequencer for the L2s um which requires a lot of sophistication again because now you're not
[01:01:06] managing state only for one domain but for multiple domains so you know you can think about that
[01:01:11] complexity and because PBS already exists and has certain kind of actors that have already solved
[01:01:20] this problem like in one domain and uh capable of solving this across other domains it actually
[01:01:25] opens the door for the L1 to become competitive to actually be a sequencer across and provide that
[01:01:32] service to L2s for example um that's one very interesting one that we've been spending more time
[01:01:37] on recently yeah that's very cool and you know like the whole idea with with dang charting and how
[01:01:44] that transform ethereum is that like each blob like let's consider each blob like its own L2 right
[01:01:51] and then there's 64 blobs per block so we have like 64 different L2s going on at a time
[01:01:57] and then like the question then becomes like okay well like the EVM itself like what's the
[01:02:03] difference between the EVM itself and that state and like the state that's contained on a blob
[01:02:08] and so like I guess in this endgame ethereum that you're talking about like yeah like basically the
[01:02:14] capabilities that we developed on ethereum mainnet um become applicable to everything else and on the
[01:02:20] flip side like ethereum mainnet just becomes another computing environment just like all these other
[01:02:26] L2s and so yeah I didn't think about this this is a really cool like thing that pbs unlocks um is
[01:02:34] for like the ability to um just build your shared sequencing directly into like literally mainnet
[01:02:43] very cool very cool all right last last question and then i'll let you go but um I would just
[01:02:48] love to hear from you like when all of the block builders get into your room and for all your
[01:02:53] like crazy little block building part MEV parties like what is the thing that's most exciting and
[01:02:59] like most interesting on uh you know like the the medium to long term roadmap of ethereum like
[01:03:05] what what do you guys looking for uh towards and like how do you think ethereum is going to transform
[01:03:10] in a way that we don't really understand yet i think what i find most fascinating as uh the
[01:03:16] evolution of the market structure and it has become quite apparent um like as i said before
[01:03:23] for example that um that the the way proposal of blocks is being done today is actually
[01:03:32] not optimal or far from it and is actually having negative side effects on the network itself
[01:03:38] and so thinking about a world where the market as it exists today and proposes a no longer valid
[01:03:45] and maybe it's a new entity or maybe the protocol is selling um directly the right to propose
[01:03:52] slots to let's say builders or the kind of speculators maybe there's a block space futures market and
[01:03:59] you have some trading firms that load up on these futures and then sell them to builders in real time
[01:04:05] to actually build the blocks for them is just thinking about what the possible scenarios would be
[01:04:10] and how like a builder like ourselves fits into that picture is very interesting and then um as i
[01:04:18] said before um also the this whole idea of doing sequencing across other ecosystems
[01:04:24] and like unifying that into day one is also very exciting for me to think about yeah very exciting
[01:04:29] all right kubi thank you so much we're already over time and um i i'm gonna stop us here because
[01:04:35] like we didn't even touch like one third of the interesting boxes that you pointed to so much
[01:04:41] appreciated we got to get you back on the pod but um i just gotta say thank you yeah thanks for
[01:04:46] having me so before i let you go just uh for the audience can you let them know where they can find
[01:04:50] you where they can find gattica or titan builder and if they're like interested in learning more
[01:04:56] about how block building and how the mv supply chain works like do you have any suggestions on where
[01:05:01] okay so let's start with gattica on myself uh so um i'm just on twitter so my dm so open as well
[01:05:07] so feel free to message me so just kubi meant uh um on twitter um so gattica or titan builder
[01:05:14] specifically just titan builder.xyz um our website and i have a bunch of docs on there
[01:05:19] it's actually surprisingly hard to find any good information in a coherent way like uh online
[01:05:25] about pbs and like the whole supply chain and also because it keeps changing so often um like most
[01:05:32] of the stuff has been outdated i think i recently came actually across um a project that is feeding
[01:05:37] a lot of uh content into chat gpt and you can just chat with it and it will give you the latest
[01:05:42] answers including videos and talks and panels from like conferences i don't have the link top
[01:05:48] of mind but maybe you can share that later. All right kubi thank you so much really appreciate it and
[01:05:53] have a good rest of your day. You too man. Cheers