The Movement to Make Blockchain Security Sexy w/ Rushi Manche (Movement Labs)

[00:00:17] Hello, welcome back and thank you for tuning in for another episode of the Strange Water podcast.

[00:00:24] Let me take you back to 2017. At the beginning of the year, Bitcoin was about $900 and Ether was

[00:00:32] about $9. What would follow over the next year could probably be called crypto's first significant

[00:00:39] bubble or at least the first one that can still be seen on the max view of the BTC price chart.

[00:00:46] Needless to say, there was a lot going on. Enough to 15x the price of BTC and 100x the price of

[00:00:55] ETH. But we're going to focus on one specific project that began a movement. Sometime in 2017,

[00:01:03] a guy named Morgan Beller began experimenting with blockchain over at Facebook. Though the

[00:01:09] party would be over and the hangover in full force in the markets by May 2018, Facebook

[00:01:15] began to take this project seriously and created a blockchain division. The first time the public

[00:01:21] got a glimpse of this project was about a year later when the Wall Street Journal announced that

[00:01:27] Facebook was building a cryptocurrency based payment system. Dubbed global coin or Facebook coin,

[00:01:35] the project would finally be formally announced under the name Libra in June 2019.

[00:01:40] The project itself was pretty interesting, but it quickly ran up against regulatory concerns.

[00:01:47] In the end, Facebook was not willing or able to push it through. And at first they announced a

[00:01:53] rebranded slimmed down version of Libra called DM. And DM never even saw the light of day.

[00:01:59] In 2022, it was formally wound down and sold to Silvergate Bank.

[00:02:05] In the end, Libra slash DM met the same fate as so many projects in our industry. Scrapped and

[00:02:11] sold for parts under the heavy weight of globally scaled expectations. But in our industry,

[00:02:18] failure is just part of the process. It's an opportunity to take what worked well and to

[00:02:24] learn from what didn't. In this case, Facebook left us with a resource that is just now

[00:02:31] seeing its time in the limelight, the move smart contract language. The language champions security

[00:02:38] through a design aspect ensuring that assets cannot be cloned. Instead, assets are non fungible with

[00:02:46] one owner at any given time. And so in an industry traumatized by enormous hacks and constant

[00:02:53] security threats, the move language is offering an extremely compelling environment for blockchain

[00:02:59] application development. But in order to use the move language, we need a move environment.

[00:03:06] Movement labs is building an Ethereum layer two blockchain based on the move language

[00:03:11] and a high performance parallel execution environment. Today's guest, movement labs co

[00:03:17] founder, Rushi Manche is here to give us a deep dive into the power move and the vision

[00:03:24] movement labs just raised $38 million to deliver. Not only will this episode help you understand the

[00:03:31] power of this technology, but it will also give you a glimpse into how movement will support

[00:03:36] their community, drive new research and in their own words, make security sexy.

[00:03:44] One more thing before we begin, please do not take financial advice from this or any podcast.

[00:03:51] Ethereum will change the world one day, but you can easily lose all of your money between now and

[00:03:57] then. Okay. And now Rushi Manche. Rushi, thank you so much for joining us on the strange water

[00:04:10] podcast. Eric says again, thanks for having me. Of course, man. So I'm so excited to talk about

[00:04:14] movement labs and like all the incredible things that are happening in the move ecosystem.

[00:04:19] And also you're specifically you're incredibly exciting news. But before we get to any of

[00:04:24] that, I am a huge believer that the most important part of every conversation are the people in it.

[00:04:29] So if that is a frame, can you tell me a little bit about who you are, how you found crypto and

[00:04:34] like really ultimately what drew you so much to the movement ecosystem? Sorry, the move ecosystem.

[00:04:40] Yeah, the move ecosystem. I'm Rushi Co-Founder and movement. I've been a nerd since I was

[00:04:45] like 14, 15, sort of this engineering and web two worked at United Health Group as a software

[00:04:52] engineer just got really to like distribute systems, databases, cloud architectures and whatnot.

[00:04:57] I was there around like three years ago, I still work as Cosmos a family friend of mine was also

[00:05:02] a builder in space. And two news very interesting because really decentralized firing systems and

[00:05:07] custom blockchain for use cases. So it's our engineering the Cosmos them and even like

[00:05:12] some sort of engineering, I think that was like high school for me and then God of College

[00:05:16] and also is doing that. And for me it was like really exciting because I was like learning

[00:05:21] about like Java and JavaScript in my college classes, even though it's super easy for me.

[00:05:25] At the same time as like working on decentralized finance applications that are actually useful.

[00:05:30] After kind of progressed, I read this article one day from like New York Times something

[00:05:35] that Facebook was building a program language. And for me, like I was building Cosmos where

[00:05:39] there's like 10 users and even with EVM not that much users compare it to like

[00:05:42] traditional up to. And this was exciting to me because like Facebook the biggest consumer

[00:05:47] that all crypto trying to get on chain is build their own program language,

[00:05:50] but no framework and ultimately launch your own blockchain to power every user on Facebook.

[00:05:55] For those unfamiliar, the DM project of Facebook design could be a stable coin for

[00:06:00] Facebook's users to track each other and they built a new program language and virtual machine

[00:06:04] because they realized the current systems and frameworks currently scale.

[00:06:09] SEC and regulation cashier down and it spun off into two major blockchains up this in city.

[00:06:14] And I was one of the first engineers and early builders in the app system.

[00:06:18] So here I was this like broke college kid just building a dex on app dust.

[00:06:23] And I think I post that to the exit, let's take a step back and it was like

[00:06:25] this move ecosystem and framework is really interesting. It has all the benefits of

[00:06:29] slant not so like high throughput, realization, localized fee markets, but also has security

[00:06:35] element which is kind of main thing that gets me excited is like how do we stop the

[00:06:38] four and a half billion dollars loss every hacker tax? So the best of security and speed

[00:06:42] combined analysis is supposed to bring to a theorem. And then November 2022, the movement

[00:06:48] thesis started great. So and we'll get to a little bit like in a little bit, we'll get to

[00:06:53] this movement thesis and like where the opportunity that you saw was. But while we're

[00:06:58] still in the Facebook part of the story, can you talk a little bit through, I guess,

[00:07:03] first from like your initial like exposure to the program to what Facebook was doing?

[00:07:10] Did you understand that as like a really, let me just be direct. So like Facebook is

[00:07:17] kind of like the antithesis of the things that we find interesting about crypto,

[00:07:21] right? Like super centralized, like so much just about like entrenched powers and like

[00:07:28] network effects of like controlling all your own stuff centralized.

[00:07:32] Like was there any sort of like tension or cognitive dissonance in

[00:07:36] like Facebook building this technology that was like so critical to decentralized finance? Or

[00:07:43] did you kind of see that as like the beauty of the space in that like it's really about the

[00:07:48] technology and the technology, no matter who builds it will like push us in a decentralized way.

[00:07:53] I think a web too, like even like websites or supposed like pretty niche and I started off

[00:07:58] right there was a few groups that were really pioneered it and some groups like felt like

[00:08:02] internet wasn't meant to go mainstream. But eventually big tech came in and then

[00:08:06] everyone's going right now. So my job thesis is like yes, like Facebook is the antithesis it is

[00:08:12] like essential authority we're trying to dethrone Facebook essentially. But I don't think that's

[00:08:17] the way to approach it holistically, right? There are certain use cases and groups that

[00:08:21] prefer decentralization anonymous, private and decentralized networks like that's what Bitcoin

[00:08:26] and user Bitcoin makes sense. There shouldn't be any time centralized and dream

[00:08:31] controlling Bitcoin and normal there ever be. But I think the principle of blockchain is

[00:08:35] decentralized compute decentralized databases, these are decentralized systems that even big

[00:08:40] tech can leverage. And it's kind of we should usher like part to be there because that's how

[00:08:45] you get like retail adoption actually people using it. I think if we take state to tribalistic

[00:08:50] we're still only good tap out like 80 users, we will never actually get mainstream adoption

[00:08:54] that we all want. So like a question I always ask myself is how do I get my mom using crypto

[00:08:59] she probably won't use like a random in on decks on some random where one she probably

[00:09:04] use a product built by Facebook. Yeah, I hear you like I agree like my mom should never will

[00:09:10] never like touching a decks even touching like even touching a stablecoin or touching the

[00:09:15] train directly like isn't the end game that I see like the end game that I see is that

[00:09:20] let's say like Ethereum or any of these blockchains are like HTTP right where

[00:09:24] they're used every single day, but only by like these letters and no one understands was

[00:09:30] a beneath the hood and why that's important. They just care about like getting the job done

[00:09:34] right. And so totally with you on that that like we can't be too precious about like our tribe

[00:09:40] and like the things that we care about and like keep out somebody like Facebook.

[00:09:44] But I guess my question to you is like let's rewind the clock and say that the SEC

[00:09:48] and like all this regulatory stuff didn't like shake Mark Zuckerberg off the plate

[00:09:53] and like they were still playing this game. Do you think that crypto is in a better space or

[00:09:59] worse space or a different space because Facebook is still here versus like the actual history that

[00:10:05] played out? Well, I think we'd have a lot more like attention and users on chain because

[00:10:10] if this DM and leave a product went into place, you have fundamental digital currency on the

[00:10:15] biggest consumer app of the world to imagine like your Bangkok and your mom's in like New York,

[00:10:20] you can send money directly within the Facebook app internationally with low fees, low latency

[00:10:25] and fully secure. So I think everyone wishes for that dream where payments are at speed of light.

[00:10:33] There's not that much like you don't need to wear for bank wires and all the ridiculous fees

[00:10:36] that come with it. So I think it was even that good and it was a really good project.

[00:10:41] But I think like we can get there even without Facebook being there.

[00:10:44] Makes sense. All right. So let's fast forward to the movement like moment like talk us through

[00:10:50] what the opportunity you saw was and like why you were the right person to capture this.

[00:10:54] Yeah. So it was been one of the first is Dex's or apps on Aftos, which is the main blockchain

[00:10:59] that spun out of the Facebook project. And my general frustration, the space was like,

[00:11:04] it was also post FDX so anything non EVM was pretty much like dead. Even like song was pretty

[00:11:10] like $8 and people were like song is going to zero. And most people kind of written off non

[00:11:15] EVMs. I think for me it was like, I really believe the movie system, like the language,

[00:11:19] the framework, the history. But there wasn't really a what we need to push. It was more of like,

[00:11:24] you have these two massive chains that raise a lot of money. But honestly, the ecosystem

[00:11:29] community was lacking at the time, especially post FDX. Like, there wasn't like the DJ and

[00:11:34] what they need to culture. So my job thesis was how do we bring like this cutting a

[00:11:39] technology from one of the biggest tech giants in the world and bring it to

[00:11:43] the web, the culture and what the new culture that we all love and bring it to a period.

[00:11:47] So that's kind of a moment where you have the best of web two, the best of web three,

[00:11:52] which is the team and combine both and then one stop shop.

[00:11:55] Totally makes a lot of sense. And I guess we'll talk about movement but like on the move

[00:12:00] language specifically, like let's just spend a few moments talking about what were the

[00:12:04] innovations that Facebook brought to the table, like let's say over solidity or

[00:12:09] over any of the other languages. And like, what did you see right there that like needed

[00:12:14] to be protected that needed to be nurtured that needed movement labs to happen?

[00:12:19] Yeah, so there's two main things. The first is speed. So the DM project pioneer block SEM,

[00:12:25] which is like an optimistic parallelization engine that kind of takes Salana's paralyzed

[00:12:30] VM to the next level. It won't get too technical in the first century brings

[00:12:34] high through the localized the markets multiple threaded processing all within the virtual machine.

[00:12:39] And then the second part is security. So every year I could touch on this four and a half billion

[00:12:44] lost. EVM has no essential protection against that. What move in the DM possibly focused on

[00:12:51] is how you do full verification runtime. So move VM hasn't moved proven built into it.

[00:12:55] So essentially, when a smart contracts executed, it checks for resource type and memory safety.

[00:13:01] So say, for example, there's integer overflow in the EVM, there's nothing stopping it. There's no

[00:13:06] firewall for crypto for smart contracts. The move VM essentially has a firewall built directly into

[00:13:11] runtime. So if any developer messes up and puts a wrong amount of code, there's actually

[00:13:15] compiler that flag and the code is like a process and there's ways to silence transactions.

[00:13:21] So the combination of high throughput block genes, like the salon experience

[00:13:25] with the auditor essentially runtime is essentially the most performant execution

[00:13:30] environment in crypto. I hear you. My life is about trade offs, right? And so like it sounds

[00:13:35] like we're getting some incredible benefits in terms of like safety and throughput. But like

[00:13:41] when I hear safety, I hear also like a ton ton of overhead. And when I hear throughput, like I hear

[00:13:49] that sounds like you're just going to need incredibly powerful computers to run it.

[00:13:53] And like both of those have kind of implications on decentralization.

[00:13:57] And so I guess my question is like when we're building in the move VM, what trade offs like

[00:14:03] are we making? And like just more specifically, like does the is the move VM like the Solana VM

[00:14:11] in that like Solana and then it requires these like super high power nodes in order to

[00:14:16] operate a network. So the second question first, the move in itself is execution environment.

[00:14:22] So like after some sweet yes, the next line, your higher beef your valid is, it's pretty centralized.

[00:14:28] And it's kind of one of the thesis why a theme where to make sense, because you're still leveraging a

[00:14:32] theme security centralization, they bring the parallelization engine to the theorem.

[00:14:36] So while you're sacrificing some of the speed enhancements, you have all the decentralization

[00:14:41] and kind of built up credibility that the theorem has in the one ecosystem.

[00:14:46] I kind of first thing on trade offs on move is it's a new reporting language,

[00:14:50] which creates a lot of developer fragmentation because obviously all the developers, all the

[00:14:55] most like 90% of the community today is in the EVM. So the question is, okay, are you going to

[00:15:01] commit every single developer and crypto to right move, complete market over? And our general

[00:15:06] thesis is we don't expect them to if you want to use Aave Uniswap, some of these blue chip

[00:15:10] defy protocols, it's probably best to say in the EVM because there's already liquidity

[00:15:14] there is already network effects. We're arguing that the future of decentralized

[00:15:18] the future of gaming consumer should be built a superior program, which I kind of movement ethos

[00:15:24] which you can touch on later is actually where they remove EVM. So not only the move bridge

[00:15:28] machine but you also support even code, which is another main thing we kind of bring to the

[00:15:32] table. Yeah, and that's super interesting. I love to like dig into that. Again, while we're

[00:15:38] still in this like pre moment, like the other way you could go with this is like where a lot of

[00:15:43] the ZK projects are going where they're creating like general purpose VMs and then allowing like

[00:15:49] any sort of like Rust application to deploy on it. And I guess like my question for you is like,

[00:15:54] why do you think it's important that in these like blockchain computing environments,

[00:15:59] we stick with blockchain native languages? Like do you see what types of applications do you see

[00:16:06] that like move is going to enable that this whole like world of like, we're just going to

[00:16:10] allow computer programs to have commitments and then somehow now they're blockchain

[00:16:14] computer programs like what do you think is being missed there? Yeah, so my running joke is like

[00:16:19] everyone wants to bring Facebook on chain bring like social consumers apps on chains.

[00:16:23] So my question is why don't you use the language that Facebook themselves built right?

[00:16:27] So the long term playbook for the movie system and general language is to be

[00:16:31] the flagship hub for smart product development in terms of social consumer. If you want to build

[00:16:36] gaming, then I can have to use it built into the language itself, which enable for

[00:16:40] upgrading of traits that will which solves all the state issues we're seeing with the EVM.

[00:16:44] For consumer apps, you have like traits built into the language itself. It's

[00:16:47] but for intuitive for near developers. The way language is designed is if you're like

[00:16:51] a web developer, you know, rust, it's very easy to pick up move. For example, running account

[00:16:57] checks, which is one of the biggest things when you do billion defi application, it takes about

[00:17:01] 10 or 15 lines and move in the SVM it takes around two pages for the EVM it takes like days

[00:17:06] and weeks. So the velocity of production to make consumer or any kind of apps is about like 90%

[00:17:13] quicker, which helps like new developers commit like when Zuckerberg built Facebook, he was in his

[00:17:18] dorm room and is able to push your project in like three weeks. That same project can't happen

[00:17:22] today in crypto because the big financial center if you rush a product, you're probably going to

[00:17:27] hack the launch and lose all your users in a week. So that's why security and performance

[00:17:32] really important. So move kind of enhances that and kind of work that we're doing is bridging

[00:17:37] over both lines because currently you have a lot of silly developers. The question is how do you go

[00:17:41] to market for them? And that's why they either interpret or whatnot. Cool. So let's talk about

[00:17:45] what movement is. And I think that like, you know, as you said, we've got like now a couple

[00:17:50] years of of like history to it. And I know that like through that history, we have an

[00:17:55] avalanche chain and we were talking about Ethereum L2s now. So can you talk us a little

[00:18:00] bit through what movement labs is like with this, with walking us through the history of

[00:18:06] what you built so far? Yeah. So we started off like post-FVX, there's pretty much only three

[00:18:11] systems where you could do a REST based VM. This is before like all the ZKVM stuff that came

[00:18:15] from market. It was avalanche, Cosmos and Polkadot. Cosmos was a bad choice for us

[00:18:21] because they didn't have a centralized like each system. It was really difficult

[00:18:24] for any kind of network to be bootstrapped at the time. And then Polkadot wasn't in

[00:18:29] the best shape of time. So it kind of led us to avalanche. And then from there, we really

[00:18:33] found a little bit of this idea of like even equitably to move and ultimately wind up on

[00:18:37] this movement L2 thesis. So what movement is, it's the first move EVM, later to Ethereum.

[00:18:43] We're using ZKVM for our proofs right now as the main role of architecture with plans

[00:18:47] to eventually have our own ability proofs via custom built ZKM new circuits.

[00:18:52] We have our own shared sequencer, which is M1. So the valor is part of the shared

[00:18:57] sequencer, sequence the layer two as well as a layer to the network. So similar to like the

[00:19:01] optimism playbook where optimism has a main DeFi chain, the optimism chain, which is RM2.

[00:19:07] They had the super chain into the shared sequencer, that's our M1. And then they have OP stack,

[00:19:11] which is our move stack where anyone can launch their own role to connect to the network.

[00:19:16] Can you so I like love that you eventually like landed on an L2. I think that's

[00:19:21] the right move. But I think what's really cool about your story is that you spent time in

[00:19:26] the Avalanche ecosystem. And I think that like you will take away lessons that like most people

[00:19:32] that just like come to Ethereum and stick to Ethereum will never like experience like basically

[00:19:38] the echo chamber problem. And so I'd love like, do you have any like insights or takeaways that

[00:19:43] like you took from building first and Avalanche subnet that like really informs the product

[00:19:48] that you're building today? I think the community is pretty like vibrant. Like one thing

[00:19:52] I realized like this is big bear market when price action was not doing the best for a vaccine,

[00:19:57] slana. First of all, the team is very supportive. We were to random college kids with no track record,

[00:20:03] no background, no like rise or fame. And they really took us in help us out. I was on a weekly

[00:20:10] call with us, they really cared about its builders and community supportive. So real

[00:20:13] bootstrapper early users early kind of believers from the Avalanche system, just because people

[00:20:18] believed in that. I think like it was a good if it was if we're saying like 0 to 100, it was

[00:20:24] good 0 to 20. But we couldn't scale beyond that because liquidity concerns and also we need to

[00:20:29] be our network is also the whole subnet thesis which I'm not sure how that's playing out.

[00:20:34] But yeah, I think it was a good lesson to like be around people who really cared.

[00:20:38] Yeah, I do have a lot of questions with like how Avalanche works in the subnet

[00:20:41] thesis as well. But so can you talk us through like this transition? Like what was the

[00:20:47] moment that you realized like it's right to pivot to Ethereum L2 and like

[00:20:52] from your understanding in that pivot to Ethereum L2, what were the things that you

[00:20:56] are gaining and what were the things that you were giving up?

[00:20:59] I think like a lot of things are giving up is like the original architecture actually was

[00:21:02] the move L1. So like going to compete with Apsin, Suizno world, I think what we

[00:21:07] correctly realized is the market doesn't need an L1, especially in the move L1, right?

[00:21:12] There's already two big L1s that were well funded. They already had a Greek system.

[00:21:15] A move on iEvaq's subnet would not be accomplishing any new user experience.

[00:21:21] There was no market to be met. Whereas when we looked at the move L2,

[00:21:24] there was a clear market to be met, right? You had a next generation versus machine

[00:21:28] with Ethereum users and Ethereum liquidity. What we realized quickly is that like Ethereum

[00:21:32] users love to stay in Ethereum and they won't really migrate to their chains.

[00:21:36] So to do that go to market to bring move as prevalent as possible, it couldn't

[00:21:42] be an avalanche and need to be on Ethereum. I like to think that one of the most brilliant

[00:21:46] parts of the L2 thesis is like sure we can talk about it from like blockchain scaling or

[00:21:51] like any of the like nerd things, but like just from a marketing standpoint, like the

[00:21:57] L2 thesis has allowed everyone to like build projects on Ethereum and like users to move

[00:22:03] into those projects and still call themselves Ethereum Maxi and Ethereum aligned. And so I

[00:22:08] think like that's what's really cool by moving to Ethereum L2. You can capture all these people

[00:22:14] that are interested in the technology you're building, but like without forcing them to like

[00:22:19] make like identity changes and like who they are and what they believe in in this space.

[00:22:24] Exactly. I think like obviously we're in a space where it's pretty childistic. So like

[00:22:28] you have those people who like love Ethereum will kill for Ethereum. And if you're trying

[00:22:33] to bring like a new execution environment, that already is a big challenge and of course

[00:22:36] simply with Ethereum, they probably won't. So I think you pick your battles and like

[00:22:40] we'll say on Ethereum, we'll care to you but we're going to present to you an

[00:22:43] alternative to the EVM. Very cool. So like as of today, like talk to us about like what

[00:22:50] movement labs like what their product is today? Are you like launching this L2? Are you like

[00:22:56] entering into a test net? Like just talk to us a little bit where like their product

[00:22:59] development is. Yeah. So today the products mainly focus in the move L2 starting off

[00:23:03] with bringing the execution environment to Ethereum. We're on DevNet right now. I'm

[00:23:06] not seeing a send device test net over the next two or three weeks. So it's a great set of people

[00:23:11] playing around with them using different apps. We both are a pretty successful system of native

[00:23:15] apps, of move apps, of EVM apps. So that should be ready for people to use. Yeah,

[00:23:22] pushing forward to main that over the next few months. And so like as you said from your

[00:23:26] experience in Avalanche, like the big takeaway that you got there was that a vibrant community

[00:23:32] and a supportive community can make up for like a lot of things that might be lacking,

[00:23:36] like let's say price action or TVL, that kind of thing. And I think that like that's a great

[00:23:42] lesson for like projects that are just starting off, like for example a brand new L2. And so

[00:23:47] I'm wondering how do you think about like creating a like vibrant community in which like

[00:23:53] young college kids like yourself are like interested in like trying something new

[00:23:58] and like feel supported by you guys and by the other teams around you?

[00:24:02] I think it starts off with leadership. It's like one thing that we particularly do all

[00:24:07] the Cooper Annihilation, like we're in the discords, we're talking to the builders,

[00:24:10] we're doing a lot of the founder led BD just so people can like understand the vision

[00:24:14] directly for the people who would inspire the vision right. I think a lot of times in

[00:24:18] the crypto it's like the foundation giving web 2 incorporate. So if I'm a random builder,

[00:24:23] I don't only get in touch with leadership, I don't even touch the people who really

[00:24:26] catch the vision. So I think it starts from a top down perspective and being humble from

[00:24:32] a founder perspective going in the grassroots creates ethos that like you are welcome, you

[00:24:38] are wanted and this is a community initiative. I think it's also goes to show like how you

[00:24:43] present yourself in social media right? I think one issue of like other ones in the

[00:24:47] past is they came off to corporate and there's like a lot of bureaucracy to get

[00:24:52] to building whereas like we're in discord with the telegram groups. It's pretty easy to get

[00:24:57] in touch with us and build on top of us and get developer support as well as like how we

[00:25:01] do grants distribution making sure that it's tokenomics are also community driven.

[00:25:06] And like are there like are you looking into directly creating programs and pipelines to

[00:25:12] like like are you doing some sort of accelerator model? Like again I think in this industry

[00:25:18] the hardest thing to do is to get people excited and get people to feel like you know

[00:25:24] past that level of support of like oh these guys care about it on Twitter but like when I'm trying

[00:25:29] to build my business like why would I put my bet here versus somebody like avalanche who like

[00:25:36] you know has like a bigger name or like somebody like Solana who has like more momentum.

[00:25:42] Like what are how are you going to like differentiate the community and like the

[00:25:46] resources for people that want to build with move? I think the first step is unlocking new

[00:25:50] skates. This is presenting to the market like why you're not just on the EDML2 right. I think this

[00:25:56] the market saturated when there's like 800 EDML2s and each out to this vampire attacking each

[00:26:01] other and we're doing prior to our devs. There's actually net new value creation because the same

[00:26:07] developers and users are hopping chain to chain just to airdrop farm or just to get

[00:26:11] the token allocations they want right. I think the first thing that we're doing is like

[00:26:15] look we're a category leader in terms of next generation environments at the top of Ethereum.

[00:26:20] You can do things like gaming, make a consumer that you couldn't do on EVM because the chain

[00:26:25] could like simply couldn't handle it. I think the descriptions look the best use case I've signed

[00:26:29] like obviously it's not your use case but most EVM chains went down during the

[00:26:33] descriptions. In the case they get arbitrained both tapped out at under DPS which shows that

[00:26:37] sequencers can't really scale. Avalanche had gas used over $500. Ethereum itself was

[00:26:42] unusable so it's clear like whether it's actually users and volumes on these major EVM chains they

[00:26:49] simply cannot scale. And for users or developers that are trying to build on chain gaming or

[00:26:55] even like order books that need high throughput you can't have single threaded machines.

[00:27:01] The prison that narrowed the market as well as the security side right. If you want to

[00:27:04] build a DeFi app that's not getting hacked for billions of dollars you have to write in

[00:27:08] a program that's for your language is formally verified. So combining those two elements of

[00:27:13] hey we're the fastest blocks in the market, we're also most secure blocks to the market,

[00:27:16] you kind of get a unique use case to present the market. And the second thing is just how you do

[00:27:22] your social media marketing presenting as a very grassroots effort that if you're coming to

[00:27:25] community you're going to be welcome and support my community. And yeah I think we've done a good

[00:27:30] job of combining both the technology as well as like a G-Gen community first initiative.

[00:27:34] So let's talk about applications like what are the most exciting things happening right now?

[00:27:40] Let's start with like the whole move ecosystem. So if you're looking at Aptos, if you're looking

[00:27:44] at SWE, if you're looking at like some of the people that are early in movement and like

[00:27:48] understand what you're building, what is move unlocking for like builders and like yeah

[00:27:55] what is move unlocking that we haven't seen in EVM or in SVM or like in blockchain today?

[00:28:02] Yeah I think like I touched on like the process of having fully formally verified apps. So a lot of

[00:28:07] like these major like liquid funds, family office and users could never really get insurance back

[00:28:12] to collateral because of smart country risk. So if I had like a thousand dollars each or even

[00:28:17] scale up like a million dollars in each, I never felt comfortable deploying capital into an EVM

[00:28:22] blockchain or EVM app because the smart country risk was so high. Even the most blue chip

[00:28:26] defri protocols like Curve, Kyber, most recently like Bunch of Bulls on Blast like they present

[00:28:33] somewhere smart country risk so that for any capital deployer it doesn't really make sense

[00:28:39] to do that when you just hold it and let the cold wall or not. I think with move you can stop 90%

[00:28:44] attack vectors with move prover so it provides a much more secure execution environment where

[00:28:49] if you're looking to deploy capital on chain it is in the most secure way to not only

[00:28:53] deploy capital but also to earn insurance. So a lot of the work that we're doing is A,

[00:28:57] obviously bulletproofing the VM and sequencer but potentially partnering with insurance providers.

[00:29:02] So imagine you deploy ETH on chain in the past insurance premiums were so high because smart

[00:29:07] country risk so there's never actually a good way to get insurance. Imagine a world where you

[00:29:11] can deploy ETH on chain it's fully fully verified so the insurance premium is much lower

[00:29:16] which actually incentivizes more capital than one chain and a lot of it go to market BD

[00:29:20] which we're announcing shortly is we have a lot of TVL commitments from funds that never felt

[00:29:24] comfortable to pass and now can deploy funds into users and DeFi apps can actually mark that as like

[00:29:30] we are the most secure yield aggregate we're the most secure dex and then on the speed and

[00:29:35] performance side like I think obviously consumer gaming it's a language that Facebook built

[00:29:40] to build Facebook on chain so if you're building a gaming app or social app you need a lot of

[00:29:44] assaminting in the EVM you're constantly minting and burning up keys trying to upgrade state

[00:29:49] for example DeFi came down as broke harmony then they broke avalanche so they needed their own

[00:29:53] chain so with move you actually don't really need the customized state because you have

[00:29:58] paralyzed engine so if you have like one crazy event on one thread let's say you have an

[00:30:03] inscription event it doesn't affect uniswap another thread it doesn't affect your game

[00:30:06] on that thread so you can actually have multiple threads within one chain instead of

[00:30:10] needing like L3s, L4s, L5s and I feel like this like paralyzed VM is kind of like the hot

[00:30:17] topic right now especially with this latest like a monad raise of just some ungodly amount of money

[00:30:23] can you talk through I guess first of all like what actually does parallelized

[00:30:29] VM mean like how is that maybe like different from our general understanding of like the EVM

[00:30:36] or just help us understand when people say parallelized parallelized um like yeah whatever

[00:30:44] they say that why is that important and then can you kind of compare and contrast like these

[00:30:49] different implementations like Solana like Solana, Monad, move like these all like claim to have the

[00:30:56] same technology but help us understand like what are the the specifics that like make these

[00:31:02] technologies different yeah so the EVM if you look at it kind of execution environment it's

[00:31:06] single threaded which means you're waiting for transactions to occur sequentially so

[00:31:11] if there's 100 transactions happening A to B, B to C, C to D you're waiting for each transaction

[00:31:16] to happen after each thread so that's why like transaction times are longer they're more expensive

[00:31:22] typically when there's not a lot of volume in network it doesn't really matter but when

[00:31:26] you have high volume events such as like a purpose market or a game actually costs a

[00:31:32] state congestion most chains tap out about 120 TPS which means gas fees get really high

[00:31:40] so let's say for example a GMX in Arbitrum when GMX does create in terms of volume

[00:31:44] Arbitrum as a chain slows down because only one thread processing all these transactions

[00:31:48] imagine like multiple thread processing that's what Solana, move, VM brings the table parallel

[00:31:53] execution so instead of waiting for A to B, B to C, C to D you're doing A, B, C, D all in

[00:31:59] conjunction with each other you're not waiting so it's like asynchronous execution um that's one

[00:32:04] thing the second thing is the cost of localized fee markets so because there's multiple threads

[00:32:09] like the touchdown if you have one high event action so if you have like let's say a game going

[00:32:15] crazy a lot of users on one game that's on one thread and if you have uniswap another thread

[00:32:20] the user experience on the uniswap isn't changed because it's a completely different thread

[00:32:24] so because you can isolate state different threads it allows you to manage state

[00:32:28] much more effectively so that's how you use random numbers like 10,000, 20,000, 30,000 TPS

[00:32:33] honestly that's more of a marketing term Solana right now is topping like 2000 TPS

[00:32:37] which is pretty good they'll probably push like 5000 within the next few weeks and few months

[00:32:42] but yeah the concept of execution transactions asynchronously with multiple thread environments

[00:32:48] enables for high execution which is much needed today but so this is predicated on the idea that

[00:32:54] like the parallel transactions that you're running are like completely independent of each

[00:32:58] other so like your GMX example like you have this perp market that's creating a ton of activity

[00:33:04] and then maybe on Arbitrum as well you would have this like brand new NFT man and that's causing a

[00:33:09] bunch of activity and in a serial VM like they both like need to happen one after another and so

[00:33:16] like everything is super expensive and a parallel VM like they can handle separate

[00:33:19] they mean separate threads and not affect each other right but it in blockchain like the whole

[00:33:27] point is that this is a shared space and like just like let's be really simple like I can't

[00:33:33] imagine how in the Ethereum world like we basically every transaction in some way needs to touch the

[00:33:40] price of ETH right and so like how can we run these like parallel transactions when each

[00:33:45] transaction affects the price of ETH which affects the next transaction which like ultimately like

[00:33:52] by how do are there major choke points that like that parallel VMs like still

[00:33:59] are limited by in the same way that a serial VM is limited by? I think there's a few like

[00:34:03] security assumptions that haven't been explored obviously Solan is having downtime issues with the

[00:34:09] consensus and how they're handling different nodes but I think that's not going to be fixed.

[00:34:13] I think I think that the point ETH doesn't really matter as much because if you're using

[00:34:17] GASP, you denominator ETH for example movement the GASP ETH at least to start will be ETH

[00:34:23] so you're doing a transaction with ETH and an oracle is updating that in real time

[00:34:26] so it comes down to like how quickly it latents with oracles which today has been pretty good.

[00:34:31] So I think it works like generally same as arbitrum optimism in terms of

[00:34:37] the kind of ETH price action I don't see that being concerned. I think if there was any

[00:34:41] bottlenecks to parallelization is like it gets tricky for certain applications because

[00:34:45] in Solan it's not an opera civilization like developers have to actually manually handle

[00:34:50] the trace between different paralyzed threads so developer experience in Solan isn't always the

[00:34:55] best. Kind of benefits of block STM is the opera optimization so the engine actually handles

[00:35:01] how transaction workflow is handled. So let's say for example my game is being a lot of volume

[00:35:06] and there's another thread with Uniswap in Solan that because there's no opera

[00:35:11] civilization it's on more than developer to manage kind of the trade-offs whereas in

[00:35:15] move VM and block STM patterns like what Monad is doing that's kind of handled with the

[00:35:20] states up. Got it so it sounds like parallel processing is not a new concept right like that

[00:35:27] has been we've solved that for like hardware processors for VMs a long time ago and it sounds

[00:35:33] like we can totally have this kind of technology whether it's in move whether it's in Solan or

[00:35:39] even if we wanted to apply it to the EVM like in Monad and the reason that they like originally

[00:35:45] didn't put it in the EVM or in the big bit VM or in any of these like blockchain environments is

[00:35:52] like to make the trade-off on decentralization and to keep the node requirements super low

[00:35:59] and what the trade-off that all of these paralyzed VMs are making is hey like whether we like are

[00:36:06] going to make different decisions on decentralization or we're going to rely on Ethereum

[00:36:11] mainnet for the like trustless properties like we're just going to like soup up our computers enough to

[00:36:17] have like the processing power to run parallel VMs and then like leverage like all the benefits of this

[00:36:24] like very modern technology is that right? No makes perfect sense I think like McSlanagh kind of pioneer

[00:36:30] where like we were sacrificing decentralization for speed I think that's where this like next

[00:36:35] gen L2 narrative kind of makes a lot of sense because you're still retaining the sovereignty

[00:36:39] ethos of Ethereum decentralization but you bring performance specs to it even like the core

[00:36:43] Ethereum people are like we love Ethereum as a principle but the EVM is really difficult to work

[00:36:48] with Solanity is really difficult to work with if you're talking Nick from Fuel he's actually like

[00:36:52] we're in the early Ethereum and EVM developers he was on the calls when Solanity was being developed

[00:36:58] and now he's building Fuel which is essentially a new parallelized VM on top of Ethereum but even

[00:37:02] like the Ethereum OG people are like recognizing the bolts of EVM while they're building EVM

[00:37:09] and like even Vitalik recently called for parallelization for Layer 2s.

[00:37:13] So let's talk about like the Layer 2 that you're building when you're building like first

[00:37:18] all how important do you think it is to have shared sequence or sorry to distributed sequencers

[00:37:24] for an L2? Is that something that you're building for like the movement L2 and that

[00:37:30] so that you can make guarantees that like the sequencer that you're running if it ever goes

[00:37:34] offline like you'll still have uptime and liveness or do you think that like that is kind of like

[00:37:40] a nice to have that's not core to what it means to be an L2? Like how do you think of

[00:37:44] decentralization at the sequencer level? Yeah I think like the future is decentralized

[00:37:49] sequencers for over some optimism based already making a lot of money this

[00:37:54] of the sequencer so not incentivized to decentralize it. They've just declared they're

[00:37:59] going to do it eventually but no one really knows when that it's going to happen because

[00:38:03] they're printing money at the sequencers. I'm generally bearish on the B2B shared sequence

[00:38:07] to place like the groups are saying like we're going to integrate with a bunch of rollups

[00:38:13] I think that's really difficult because ultimately an ecosystem itself needs to pioneer

[00:38:18] the shared sequencer or decentralized sequencer because you need volume it doesn't matter if

[00:38:22] some RAM rollup uses a decentralized sequencer there's no volume users and good market around it.

[00:38:27] I think that's why we're approaching even like all these next channel twos are really focusing on is

[00:38:31] A, we need a decentralized sequencer because we have a paralyzed high performance VM so

[00:38:37] centralized sequencer won't scale up performance won't scale we want to guarantee uptime even if

[00:38:41] that node goes down so from pure performance point of view is very important and the second

[00:38:47] thing is also tokenomics right most LARA2 tokenomics are essentially meme coins and

[00:38:51] discoverinnce tokens there's no actual utility there with a decentralized sequencer ultimately

[00:38:57] a shared sequencer, dollars can actually participate in the sequencing you actually have more

[00:39:01] decentralization because if I'm running a node for let's say arbitrum it's decentralized and

[00:39:06] I can stake the ARP token or in this or our case stake the move token to participate in

[00:39:10] sequencing and earn sequencing fees for the network so if I'm like huge like moving fan I

[00:39:16] can run my own node stake the token and get the fees generated from LARA2 as well as other

[00:39:20] LARA2s in a network so that brings me to the third point where these shared sequencers enable

[00:39:26] kind of a network of blockchain beyond LARA2 kind of the benefit of the Optimism E system isn't

[00:39:31] after them anymore it's based their biggest client so we envision the future where there's

[00:39:36] going to be a bunch of rollups we envision the future where moving itself itself may

[00:39:40] not be the biggest rollup there may be like AI rollup or a gaming rollup that has more volume

[00:39:43] we want them to be connected to the major system via shared sequencer so it's easy

[00:39:47] liquidity transfer so the combination of those different things make it sense for us to

[00:39:51] do easier decentralization. Yeah, I so first of all in your head do you

[00:39:58] is shared sequencer and distributed sequencer is that like two sides of the same coin is that

[00:40:03] the same technology? No so it's decentralized sequencer which simply means there's multiple

[00:40:07] nodes taking part in sequencing network fair sequencing as we have multiple rollups

[00:40:12] connected network so for our main purposes we're starting off decentralized because there probably

[00:40:18] won't be another a movement rollup until mainnet once we have one or more new rollups joining

[00:40:24] system that's going to become shared so shared sequencer is two more than one rollups a decentralized

[00:40:29] sequencer is multiple nodes a shared sequencer is decentralized by decentralized sequencers and

[00:40:34] shared. So in this I've been thinking a lot about shared sequencers and I've heard Ben Fish from

[00:40:39] Espresso talk about it a lot and I think like when you're when you're sitting in this like the

[00:40:45] sequencer the node operator seat like it makes so much sense that like oh I can sit here and see all

[00:40:51] this different order flow across all these different chains and I because I have this

[00:40:55] unique perspective I can create transactions and extract a ton of value for me right like

[00:41:02] my question is always on the l2 side which is like why would I want to opt into a system

[00:41:08] where like there is a huge amount of value that is like extracted out because we have this like

[00:41:18] this connection to like another ecosystem that I don't even care about like put another way

[00:41:22] like base might be looking at what's going on now and say like huh if like if optimism had

[00:41:30] a shared sequencer and like we're able to extract a ton of mev out of our ecosystem

[00:41:36] like that just sucks for us like why would we like allow that and not just spin off into our own

[00:41:41] system and so like do you have any thoughts on on like the tension in shared sequencing and like

[00:41:49] does it make sense for all parties involved or is this something that like really still needs to

[00:41:53] be thought through and worked out yeah I think like this is where dual seeking it's really

[00:41:57] exciting and what we're working on as well because yes if it's single staking single

[00:42:01] side of staking then why would base give up its clearly brilliant business model and sacrifice

[00:42:07] that to optimism super chain unless there was huge financial incentives what dual staking and this

[00:42:13] probably what optim is also working on is these values are sequencing both optimism and base

[00:42:18] and the movement in other worlds are dual sticking values so you stake the op token

[00:42:22] and the future hypothetical base token within the same node so within movement

[00:42:27] use the valor stake the move token but they want to sequence another roll up they also state

[00:42:32] given robes token there's a few other groups like ethos are also working on skills taking approach

[00:42:36] but with that approach you actually have big economic incentives because if I'm a roll up

[00:42:42] I would actually obliged and I interested in connecting to a shared sequencer because

[00:42:47] my token size value cruel I'm still taking the token there's so bipartisan for the

[00:42:50] token around the node I don't have to worry about like the hardware requirements I don't

[00:42:54] even worry about the user experience or the developer experience of running your

[00:42:57] shared sequencer does it develop a group or like any of that so let's say for example my game

[00:43:01] roll up I want my token to have staking value I want to be a theorem I want realization I will

[00:43:06] stake my token part of the movement share sequencer not worried about the 10 development experience

[00:43:11] and still get the fees and by pressure that I want part of the tokenomics model but don't you worry

[00:43:16] that like by opting into that so that you get some fees and a little bit of by pressure

[00:43:21] you're essentially like opening up your waters to like the sharks of every other ecosystem

[00:43:27] and I'm talking specifically about me v and I'm e via I think like

[00:43:31] because they're obviously a lot all the bots kind of looking for like which

[00:43:36] chain has a more like return I think values can do cool stuff where maybe certain nodes you

[00:43:43] shut off dual staking I think it gets tricky because no one is explored how may be related

[00:43:49] to share sequencers because there's not a single life share sequence live production

[00:43:54] it does get tricky at something that we're working on I don't think I'm a straight off answer

[00:43:58] failure yeah well I definitely encourage you to like go look like this is all expresso systems

[00:44:02] talks about and again they talk about it from the sequencer side which is like look at all this

[00:44:08] Mev you're gonna get and I'm thinking like maximal extracted value like that sucks for

[00:44:16] the L2 and the people in the ecosystem and so again that's that's something that I really

[00:44:21] struggle with like in this like future that we're going into this world of 10 000 rollups is

[00:44:27] like the reason that we're creating rollups is to have a sovereign space and like with shared

[00:44:32] sequencer are we taking out the sovereignty like we're bringing back all the worst parts but

[00:44:38] without like with just like pretty minor benefits yeah I think like ultimately like

[00:44:45] optimism there'll probably only be like two three major chains so don't imagine that may be at

[00:44:50] least for the short term being that ridiculous I think if you can have in moderate moderate built

[00:44:58] into validators so we can shut down me bots that could be interesting but I'll have to take a look

[00:45:03] at that maybe it's something that works do you think about very cool so I think now is like

[00:45:07] a good time to pivot to talking towards the future and like I'm so excited and like so proud

[00:45:12] of you it's like just last week you announced this incredible raise so first of all congratulations

[00:45:18] any like good war stories or like tips on like what it took to get there yeah I mean

[00:45:23] we started off the fundraising is pretty difficult because we had no brand name we were two college

[00:45:27] kids in a dorm room with like 50 bucks or anything out so like most VCs investors passed the first

[00:45:33] look because this was post-apdex and anything that wasn't bulletproof was a flight risk so we got

[00:45:39] like a thousand nodes before first yes which has like a 21 like a 20 year old kid turning 21

[00:45:44] wasn't the most fun thing to do and obviously a lot of mental issues but I think like that kind of

[00:45:50] taught me a lot of a like how the market wants how do you fundraise how do you build momentum

[00:45:55] I think that experience led to kind of our success because we failed so many times and

[00:45:59] stuck through it me my co-founder a we built like a bond that is like a lifelong bond now

[00:46:04] and then B we learn all the skills that showed grit today so even today like our team

[00:46:09] is pretty disciplined we're pretty tight in the team humbled down to path we were never

[00:46:13] like the PhDs the rock star Facebook guys we were just two scrappy kids and the team that

[00:46:19] we simple was pretty scrappy as well nice well again congratulations and man that's a big round

[00:46:25] and like a very exciting thing so like again congratulations I would love to talk like what

[00:46:32] what do you want to do with this money and like really what is the future of like movement

[00:46:37] labs look like in you know the the one year timeframe sure but like really in the five

[00:46:41] in the ten year timeframe yeah I think like the main number one use some money like community

[00:46:47] building whether that's like we look at a pack as a big smoker for us obviously move is pretty big

[00:46:52] in Korea with the work the opposite of doing we're pretty close with our best team and plan

[00:46:56] working again pretty closely there so that's expansion Korea sorry it's in back when there's

[00:47:01] one second we got enough yeah so we plan to do a lot of work in the pack region where

[00:47:06] bringing consumer apps and gamers to Korea so I'm hiring a big a pack team we're also hiring

[00:47:12] a popular team so to me form verification is very important how do you blow up with

[00:47:15] first-world contracts and put home methods into programming programming so we're hiring

[00:47:21] a research team as well to really look at the sequence level discuss the MEV stuff that

[00:47:25] you're bringing up which is a fair point I'm planning to do more work on that

[00:47:29] and I think it's generally like we want to empower builders so we already have three

[00:47:33] products that close and raise rounds which we've been helping with cap table there

[00:47:38] hosting events hackathons driving developer adoption but I think we really want to make

[00:47:42] sure the funds that we raise are going back towards the community so if you're a builder

[00:47:46] please reach out we have a lot of grant programs and incentive programs and the main

[00:47:52] point toward the next few months is towards community very cool so I'd love to talk a

[00:47:56] little bit about what it's like to build in APAC and just like definitely cross cultures

[00:48:03] and so sorry I don't mean to presume but I think you're American or like at least you have

[00:48:09] like raised money from America so can you talk a little bit about what your

[00:48:14] like the big takeaways in terms of like cultural differences between like the two crypto markets

[00:48:20] the western and the eastern and like what does it mean to like bet big in Asia like how do you

[00:48:25] make those bets like how is it different like talk to me about like when you say that

[00:48:30] movement lives is going to go big in Asia what does that mean I mean we're a western team based

[00:48:35] in San Francisco I grew up in New Jersey and New York and Nashville most of my life so never really

[00:48:41] explore a lot of Asia but I think like especially in crypto where the state isn't the most

[00:48:47] adaptive place of crypto and policies Asia is really blowing up for it so Singapore, Hong Kong,

[00:48:52] Korea and emerging markets that are really accepted crypto put great policy Singapore is

[00:48:58] really pushing forward it so we're seeing a lot of good usage and driving from governments

[00:49:03] and on the consumer side things like anime and consumer avenues are much more crypto friendly

[00:49:09] so the best example is like escape plan in Korea they're very pro crypto it's the biggest kind of

[00:49:15] telecom company in Korea and they have their own blockchain they have their own collectibles

[00:49:20] on chain their users actually want to own assets on chain because it's part of their culture

[00:49:24] I don't want to speak for them because I'm not from the community but one thing that we're really

[00:49:28] focusing on is hiring the team that does so so we just made a few key exciting hires we're excited

[00:49:33] announced that know what to do in the Korea Southeast Asia Pan regions know how to rally

[00:49:38] users developers customers and even like capital I think Asia is kind of growing up to be like

[00:49:44] the capital hub for crypto in terms of native ETH internally at BC so when you're looking at

[00:49:50] so when you're looking at how do you grow the TV out of a chain a lot of that capital is coming

[00:49:55] from Asian markets you know I when I was in like undergrad I one of my summer internships I was a

[00:50:03] development intern for riot games and I'll never forget I was talking to like my dad

[00:50:09] like knew about riot games and they so they do League of Legends and they make

[00:50:13] like untolds amount of money by selling skins for the characters like you can't buy new powers

[00:50:19] or like can't become more powerful just the skins and it just blew his mind that like they're able

[00:50:23] to build this company for people buying nothing that's what he would always say like they're buying

[00:50:28] nothing and I you know to me that was just like no they're not buying nothing it's just like we

[00:50:34] we live more of our lives online like every single day we live more and more for our lives

[00:50:38] online and it makes sense to me that like as we put our identity there we're willing to

[00:50:43] like spend money there and for all the same stupid reasons that we spend it out here

[00:50:48] and I think that something that Asia is just like so far ahead of us on is understanding that

[00:50:55] like this line between like the online world and the offline world is like really arbitrary

[00:51:01] and just a reflection of how new the technology was and like the fact that online didn't exist

[00:51:06] even 20 years ago 30 years ago and so yeah I do hear you that there's just this like

[00:51:14] this ease of like getting people to understand digital property that it's much easier in Asia

[00:51:21] and I guess like the other side of it too is it's not just like the culture right like there's more

[00:51:26] regulatory frameworks like businesses are more willing to get involved and I'd love for you

[00:51:30] to talk a little bit about that piece like what's it like working outside of the US and outside

[00:51:35] of the West where instead of like you know businesses looking at our place and actually

[00:51:41] running away in fear like that people are embracing this technology as like new capabilities and new

[00:51:47] things that we've never done before I mean what's it like on the B2B side building in Asia yeah I

[00:51:53] think like generally it's much more collaborative and there's more application teams so the state

[00:51:59] is really good at infrastructure obviously out of the US and have leaders in the states with

[00:52:05] offices like New York and San Francisco but it's not an application bill it's because the

[00:52:09] users aren't really in the states the users for crypto when it's consumer gaming like even mobile

[00:52:15] games or like mainland China Korea Japan these are where like the crypto games like Axi Infinity saw a

[00:52:21] lot of volume and even going on to a topic like like AirDrop farming for states that you think

[00:52:26] like a $5,000 AirDrop it's like cool like maybe it's rent for one month and like Indonesia

[00:52:31] you just fed like your family for a year right so that $5,000 is a good long way so like

[00:52:36] people in like these parts of the world really love crypto because they can fundamentally make a

[00:52:41] living off of it and like participating networks and governance all these things are very important

[00:52:45] to them so I think for a B2B play it's like we see like the next wave of apps like I personally

[00:52:51] think the biggest consumer app in crypto will come from Korea I think the biggest like users

[00:52:54] in Wales are starting to form in terms of Asian markets so we do B2B I think it's like

[00:52:59] part like building infrastructure probably in the states like developer talent obviously Stanford

[00:53:04] is one of the best usage arms in the world that's probably just a little way for the next few years

[00:53:09] but the users and the kind of good market is very important to Asia because that's where the buyers

[00:53:12] that's what the users that's where the app builders are so the best about the world is kind

[00:53:16] of how we approach it and then like I think last thing before we got to cut this off just

[00:53:21] timing wise but you talked a little bit about how you want to spend this money that you just

[00:53:27] raised on research and so my question for you is like what are the buckets of things

[00:53:32] that like you find super interesting in terms of research like and where are the opportunities

[00:53:38] that you see for movement to push this space forward whether that's in the move language

[00:53:43] in like blockchain slash l2 architecture in just like social paradigms like where when you

[00:53:49] say you want to spend on research where is that I think our title is trying to make security

[00:53:52] sexy again so you have like a lot of security groups like auditors that pioneering security

[00:53:58] for last decade or so but it's always been like a b2b thing it's always been an afterthought

[00:54:03] yeah we're going to build a school tech and maybe you might secure it and oftentimes we don't

[00:54:08] and you attack then we're like okay like crypto is so used to a $50 million hack that's like oh

[00:54:13] it's still $50 million when in reality like if I told my parents like my app got half of $50

[00:54:17] million they would freak out and never use again so I think that's one of the biggest

[00:54:22] barriers to adoption in our industry it's like from our inner circle these hacks are

[00:54:27] normal from our circle it's like we're not going to touch this thing until it gets it figured out

[00:54:32] so we really want to position ourselves as leader in terms of infrastructure security

[00:54:36] making security part of the ethos and building into the runtime so the key main value brought

[00:54:41] to this form verification so how do you build rules build VMs and sequencers that are resilient

[00:54:46] to Haco text so we're hiring a poll research division dedicated for verification whether

[00:54:52] that's bulletproofing the EVM side of the virtual machine for stacks so we can disable

[00:54:57] reaction we have to figure out these other issues what gets me excited is a sequel

[00:55:01] silver monitoring so I feel a lot about those like everyone argues that censorship is bad right

[00:55:06] we're trying to build censorship resistance systems there's a world where censorship is actually good

[00:55:10] or what do you have a sequencer that can monitor mempools and stop hacker attacks

[00:55:14] and actually helping so if you have a bad opcode or it's an overflow or some kind of

[00:55:19] issue with mempool you can essentially monitor the transactions like this transaction is bad

[00:55:24] let's make sure it doesn't get executed if your or book roll up you can geoblocks certain kind of

[00:55:28] users who are portrayed by actors and intentionally do that so there's actually a world where

[00:55:34] you can turn on censorship within sequencer so if you launch your custom roll up you can have

[00:55:39] built-in security from the VM level as well as sequence level so yeah short answer is we want

[00:55:44] to make security sexy again yeah no and and that I love make security sexy again that's very good

[00:55:50] but like so when you talk about a lot of verification in my head like in my echo chamber

[00:55:57] what that means is a lot about zk technology and I'm wondering does like how much when you're

[00:56:04] building movement labs like how much are you touching zk how much do you understand that

[00:56:09] to be a part of like the stack that you're building and like basically the stack of

[00:56:14] blockchains in the future yeah so I think like the end game is just eventually have good fully zk

[00:56:19] move vm I think current proving costs are pretty high like either if it's a set business action

[00:56:24] it's pretty problematic for us so I don't think infrastructure is already fairly paralyzed in

[00:56:29] next generation zero knowledge first machine so the way using zk is zk fraud proofs as part

[00:56:34] of the rollups we're not building in-house we're partnering with zk providers that have always

[00:56:39] spent a lot of research into it so I think the short term is you get bar proofs but eventually

[00:56:44] kind of once we have a stable environment looking to migrate to a validity proof network

[00:56:48] but they'll improve marketplace and whatnot well I guess like taking a step back like

[00:56:53] my question for you is when you're talking about security research is that about cryptography

[00:56:59] and about like not even the verification on main net of like the the transactions that happen on the

[00:57:06] l2 like the the fraud proof paradigm but I'm talking about just within the move vm itself

[00:57:12] when you're talking about like increasing security is that a story of cryptography and a

[00:57:17] story of like creating better tools that provide mathematical guarantees or is that more about

[00:57:23] systems architecture and building like safe paths and like the right kinds of checks but

[00:57:28] is really much more of like an analog in a non-cryptographical branch of research I think it

[00:57:34] starts off in the latter where it's like you're just bringing rules to environments so if I'm a

[00:57:39] random developer for example like manage integer overflows there's no account checks in the evm

[00:57:45] bring those like account checks at sequence level and the execution level so it's like if I am

[00:57:50] deploying fraudulent code or a code that I missed up on there's account checks and system

[00:57:56] checks into runtime that can run those slides not deploy bad code but I think long term it is like

[00:58:02] how do we build the best decentralized network with our custom provers custom cryptography

[00:58:07] so if I'm deploying smart contracts maybe it's like we're able to encrypt it have some privacy in

[00:58:13] it but don't think that's a short-term focus for us I think there's other teams that are

[00:58:17] better suited for that and we'll have to partner with them but I think that's more

[00:58:21] long-term thing with us. Awesome man well I really appreciate it and I'm really excited for the future

[00:58:27] that movement is going to build I think you're so right to like just look at the state of blockchain

[00:58:33] and realize like Ethereum is like something special and something precious and it also like totally

[00:58:39] sucks to actually use and build on and I do think the right way to like push blockchain

[00:58:45] forward is not to launch another L1 like if all we care about is computing like why are we bothering

[00:58:52] with any of this like let's just go build like financial apps on AWS and call it a day like

[00:58:58] the the special thing we have here is the shared space and the question for builders is how do you

[00:59:03] improve the shared space and not like how do you just burn it down and start over and hope that

[00:59:08] everyone decides that your space is the shared space so could not be more aligned with what

[00:59:12] you're doing and like how you're getting there and man just thank you for sharing it with us.

[00:59:17] Thanks so much for having me. Of course before I let you go can you share with the audience just

[00:59:21] where they can find you where they can find movement labs and we talked so much about

[00:59:26] how like you guys have really embraced the importance of ecosystem support and just like

[00:59:33] vibes and like the ecosystem so can you tell the audience where they can find you where they

[00:59:40] can find movement and like if they want to get involved like how should they get started?

[00:59:43] Yeah Twitter's boom and labs XYZ is a link tree in the handle that has our discord

[00:59:49] we're pretty active in discord have a lot of fun memes and community initiatives and

[00:59:53] discord it's pretty active and then me personally it's at Rushi Monchay RUSHI

[00:59:58] man cchi on twitter feel free DM me i'm chronically online chronically

[01:00:04] bull posting i'm a shit posting so feel free to get me there i think generally it's like we are a team

[01:00:10] that wants to be reached out to as well as the world we shot to you so if you have any cool ideas

[01:00:16] do hit ping me ping anyone team we're all yours. Awesome well Rushi thank you so much i'm so

[01:00:21] excited for you i can't wait to see like this this uh from last week on is like the era of

[01:00:27] movement labs and i can't wait to see like what comes from that so congratulations good luck and

[01:00:33] have a good rest of your day. Thanks so much. Thanks for having me. Bye.